View Poll Results: Which of these things would improve education in the US?

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  • Longer school days

    14 16.47%
  • Longer school years

    31 36.47%
  • Better pay for teachers

    29 34.12%
  • More charter schools

    27 31.76%
  • More public vouchers for private schools

    34 40.00%
  • Weakening teachers' unions

    42 49.41%
  • More funding

    31 36.47%
  • Reallocation of funding (e.g. on a state level instead of on a district level)

    27 31.76%
  • Firing teachers who fail to perform to the standards the school board expects

    50 58.82%
  • More online education, replacing some brick-and-mortar schools

    17 20.00%
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Thread: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

  1. #191
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    We don't need to weaken Unions we need to eliminate them all together and make employment 100% dependent on results.

    The old saying the those who do and those who can't teach, has its basis in fact.

    There are some wonderful teachers out there but they are hard to find these days.

    Because of Unions and Liberals, in the last 30 years California has gone from #1 in Education to #49 just ahead of Mississippi.
    What results do you want to base employment on? Be specific.

    That saying has no basis in fact. Teaching is a skill all its own. Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you can teach it.
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  2. #192
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    If you don't think a teacher can be exploited you have never been a non-tenured teacher. I've seen good teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong school board member. A non-tenured teacher can be fired for any reason(except race, religion, or gender) with no warning and no documentation of a problem.
    OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z
    I've seen teachers who got great evaluations from the principal(their direct supervisor who sees them on a daily basis) only to be fired by the school board. I'm not a member of a union but I'm glad someone is out there trying to make sure teachers are treated fairly.
    At the expense of students.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.



    At the expense of students.
    That is not true of any job. At most jobs a boss has to document issues and give the employee time to "fix" the problem. There is a human resources department that oversees the whole thing. That is not true for a non-tenured teacher.

    Treating teachers fairly is in the best interest of the students because it keeps good teachers in the classroom.
    ~Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.
    Actually, there is a pretty good reason for that. The idea is that someone who wants to be a teacher is dedicated to the subject they teach. Given the amount of training required and relatively low salaries that accompany most teaching posts, there's still good reason to think that's the case. Teachers are supposed to be dedicated to truth, and as new truths arise in their field of study, or old ones become politically uncomfortable, they're supposed to teach those anyway, because education is about the truth.

    Administrators, on the other hand, don't conform to those conditions. They can be prone to act according to the dictates of politics. So, for instance, when a high school biology teacher in the 1920s starts teaching evolution rather than creation, tenure is supposed to prevent him getting fired. Or when a school board wants to eliminate the Illiad from the curriculum because it's too violent, or the Epic of Gilgamesh because it's too erotic, or the Grapes of Wrath because it's too gritty, the teachers are supposed to be able to tell them to kiss off. When they want to stop teaching multiplication tables because there are calculators now and it's a waste of time and money, the teachers are (again) supposed to be able to tell them no without fear of retribution.

    I'll be the first to admit that, in practice, in our public schools, this works less well than it should. But that's the theory, and if you do away with tenure, education ends up in the hands of politicians.

  5. #195
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.



    At the expense of students.
    You make a leap. No one has argued at the expense of the children. Nor would anyone.

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  6. #196
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You make a leap. No one has argued at the expense of the children. Nor would anyone.
    Except, perhaps, as a part of that Pavlovian response I just mentioned.

    Unions bad, unions liberal, liberal bad, so unions bad.

    School boards good, school boards elected, school boards conservative, conservative good, so school boards good.

    Ug.
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  7. #197
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Except, perhaps, as a part of that Pavlovian response I just mentioned.

    Unions bad, unions liberal, liberal bad, so unions bad.

    School boards good, school boards elected, school boards conservative, conservative good, so school boards good.

    Ug.
    Sad isn't it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #198
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You missed the most important two IF you want to catch up with other nations on international standardized test scores:

    1- a national educational curriculum where the entire USA learns the same things from the same books and materials and takes the same tests which measure what is actually learned in ever classroom in America. Until you do that, you are NOT measuring what is actually taught in classrooms or learned in classrooms since we have thousands upon thousands of different school systems devoid of uniformity in curriculum which many other nations have notably Japan.
    America is a large country and is not bound by Tribal bonds nor is largely uniform in culture or history. I personally don't think the Federal Government is capable nor has a Constitutional mandate to do so. And it would more likely cause great tension in the country making the Core Curriculum even more political than it exists as now.

    2- American education is a factory system where each raw material progresses down an assembly line at the same pace. That must be done away with. Teach everyone the concept of one plus one is two. Those that master it move on. Those who do not go to another teacher for another approach until they do master it before moving on. Do that with everything you teach and some kids will graduate in eight year, some in twelve years, and some in even longer periods of time. It will cost Xdollars to educate some, 1.5Xdollars to educate others and 3X dollars to educate some.
    I agree with this fully. Better yet we can have charter schools and get rid of government schools and only have the State governments have an oversight capacity with respect to the Core curriculum
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  9. #199
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    Some additonial ideas:

    Get rid of ScanTron tests. Hardly any Subject can be effictivly tested with that. Nothing else shows mastery of a subject than fill in the blank tests, unless you count the dreaded essay.

    Get rid of the students that just don't want to be in school after the primary grades. Allow them to get employable job skills such as Vocational Education this would include some specilaized occupatins perhaps Dental Assitant, or even Para-Legal not just the Shop guys and their respective Jobs. Europe has a two tier system where academic and pratical types are steared to. I just say make it an option.

    Get rid of the PTA and have a PEA (Parental Education Association) which is just parents banding together for mutual support for assitance in healping their kids with schoolwork. The PTA is just a tool for the Teacher's Unions and I pretty much figured that out in grade (primary) School.

    Have a Maximum Limit for the number of students for schools. There should be no Mega Schools this limits opertunity for students if the limit of the number of students were 250 for highschools insted of 1000+. Only so many can be on on Speach/Debate, Yearbook, Student Paper, and other such options.

    Have some specialits schools that focus on some category Like the Fine Arts, Socal Sciences, the "Hard" Sciences etc. which students can take for three classes on a Semester basis (in place of the Vocational Schooling option)

    Eliminate HS all together have them go to a Community College instead, having people of diffrent age sets will at least show the importace of the subject taught and is not just annother course for graduation.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  10. #200
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    Re: Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

    An example why the ScanTron test encourages a big FAIL:

    "The Answer is NOT always C" by Jeff Rosenberg on CollegeHumor
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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