View Poll Results: Should elected officials fear for their lives with regard to legislative efforts?

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Thread: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

  1. #51
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And now we are having threats of violence against government representatives when all it takes is an election to change the government.
    With the convergence of the Republican and Democrat party along with the shutting down of open, and competitive participation in the political process; that statement is becoming less and less true.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #52
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And now we are having threats of violence against government representatives when all it takes is an election to change the government. We have the well armed and possibly mentally infirm oxen before the cart in my opinion.
    Actually, I was attempting to say that:

    We have passed the point where the people trusted the government to protect them and do things in their best interests.

    We have even passed the point where the people more-or-less trusted the government to protect them and do things with the intent to help them.

    Now, we have more and more people who no longer completely trust (and in some cases, distrust) the government to protect them, and who expect the government to do things that hurt them.

    Further, many people donít think the election system changes anything, except to perhaps elect a different flavor of fail.

    In short, distrust (or outright dislike) of the government and distrust that the next election will actually change a damn thing (except peripheral, store-front appearances) seem to be the trend.

    It's threats now - it may be actions later, unless the trend turns itself around somehow.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #53
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    With the convergence of the Republican and Democrat party along with the shutting down of open, and competitive participation in the political process; that statement is becoming less and less true.
    Well now you are discussing something completely different from what the militant wing of tea partiers, or the founding fathers, had in mind. I don't see how a violent overthrow of our whole system of government could succeed given you still have the same problem with lack of public support for your "movement." Or, if you could somehow win the support of the people, then why not then just vote in your new government? The whole armed violent approach to this makes no logical sense to me.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #54
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Actually, I was attempting to say that:

    We have passed the point where the people trusted the government to protect them and do things in their best interests.

    We have even passed the point where the people more-or-less trusted the government to protect them and do things with the intent to help them.

    Now, we have more and more people who no longer completely trust (and in some cases, distrust) the government to protect them, and who expect the government to do things that hurt them.

    Further, many people don’t think the election system changes anything, except to perhaps elect a different flavor of fail.

    In short, distrust (or outright dislike) of the government and distrust that the next election will actually change a damn thing (except peripheral, store-front appearances) seem to be the trend.

    It's threats now - it may be actions later, unless the trend turns itself around somehow.

    I think I pretty much covered the flaws I see in that approach in my post above.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I think I pretty much covered the flaws I see in that approach in my post above.
    The "vote a new government in" approach assumes that the election system allows such - I'm not sure how many people still believe it would.

    Hopefully, enough.

    The key is to get more people intelligently voting - too many people simply vote for one party or the other without looking at individual races.

    Even those who take the time to look at individual races don't always take the time to examine the rhetoric and hype surrounding the various candidates to filter out facts.

    Example of how I would far rather people voted – although perhaps not the best:

    Last presidential election, I examined the two candidates as best I could, and came to the conclusion that McCain was the (slightly) lesser of two evils – in short, I thought he would do less damage to the country.

    Now, I would far prefer that when I went to vote, I wasn’t looking at what choice would cause the least damage – and I think most people would agree with me.

    There are various aspects of our election system that I think could be improved, but I haven’t made a very detailed examination of them, so I’m not exactly sure which ones.

    But I digress.

    My point is, a non-violent transition between one general governmental system and another almost NEVER happens…I’m not that well-versed on history, but I can’t recall it happening at all.

    Bla…end ramble.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  6. #56
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The "vote a new government in" approach assumes that the election system allows such - I'm not sure how many people still believe it would.

    Hopefully, enough.

    The key is to get more people intelligently voting - too many people simply vote for one party or the other without looking at individual races.

    Even those who take the time to look at individual races don't always take the time to examine the rhetoric and hype surrounding the various candidates to filter out facts.

    Example of how I would far rather people voted – although perhaps not the best:

    Last presidential election, I examined the two candidates as best I could, and came to the conclusion that McCain was the (slightly) lesser of two evils – in short, I thought he would do less damage to the country.

    Now, I would far prefer that when I went to vote, I wasn’t looking at what choice would cause the least damage – and I think most people would agree with me.

    There are various aspects of our election system that I think could be improved, but I haven’t made a very detailed examination of them, so I’m not exactly sure which ones.

    But I digress.

    My point is, a non-violent transition between one general governmental system and another almost NEVER happens…I’m not that well-versed on history, but I can’t recall it happening at all.

    Bla…end ramble.

    I think you are right about getting more people to vote intelligently. However, I think efforts would be better spent in developing a strong 3rd party to challenge the two dominant parties then it would to try to build support for a mow 'em down approach. Also not so sure that a dictatorship that could develop after a civil war would be better than our current situation.

    Edit: oh the other thing I wondered is how much does it cost to finance a civil war? Is that generally a good thing for the economy?
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-14-11 at 10:54 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #57
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I think you are right about getting more people to vote intelligently. However, I think efforts would be better spent in developing a strong 3rd party to challenge the two dominant parties then it would to try to build support for a mow 'em down approach. Also not so sure that a dictatorship that could develop after a civil war would be better than our current situation.

    Edit: oh the other thing I wondered is how much does it cost to finance a civil war? Is that generally a good thing for the economy?
    We'd have less people to feed, after a civil war...

    Bad joke...

    But no, I don't think a civil war would be good for the economy during the war - the rebuilding process might have a positive effect - at least as compared to the wartime...
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #58
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    A little something I encountered at another forum. This (IMO) looks like clear-cut advocacy for the events that took place recently in Arizona. Later on in the discussion, one of these posters even went so far as to quote Jefferson and his liberty/tyranny proclamation (regarding government).

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    Anyone agree?
    Apparently the author of those comments suddenly forgot that we're post 9/11 America.
    Geesh - not too long ago people were SUPER pissed becase they were discussing closing the front staired entrance to the Supreme Court Building.

    Did this person forget about the PATRIOT Act? All the many measures that Congress has taken - one by one - to close off public access to areas of DC? You can't drive through the Mall, anymore - and it's likely that you can't even walk through many areas that were once open to public meandering.

    I guarantee you that the video surveillance and lock and chain industries have BOOMED business wise in the last decade.

    Yeah - I guess all that suddenly STOPPED happening when I was sleeping or something And now it's starting all over again I guess. . . geesh! Where was I when everything relaxed and when back to 2000 green levels?

    I don't know why someone would ASSUME that everyone in Congress has had a casual relaxed mood about everything

    The only that this has done is drive people AWAY from their elected government officials - there will be LESS public/congress meetings and shoulder rubbing. LESS trust.

    A relationship cannot survive without trust.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 01-14-11 at 11:18 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    We'd have less people to feed, after a civil war...

    Bad joke...

    But no, I don't think a civil war would be good for the economy during the war - the rebuilding process might have a positive effect - at least as compared to the wartime...
    Sort of like Iraq?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #60
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sort of like Iraq?
    Not at all, unless you mean a very vague resemblance, and at that only in that they both involve death.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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