View Poll Results: Should elected officials fear for their lives with regard to legislative efforts?

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Thread: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

  1. #41
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I don't think Jefferson meant, "if ballots don't work, bullets will."
    In a sense, yes he did. It's not to say every little thing that comes along that we don't like, we go and shoot someone. But what Jefferson is talking about is when the system breaks down and the government becomes unresponsive to the needs and rights of the People. Under than scenario, voting doesn't work and you need guns.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In a sense, yes he did. It's not to say every little thing that comes along that we don't like, we go and shoot someone. But what Jefferson is talking about is when the system breaks down and the government becomes unresponsive to the needs and rights of the People. Under than scenario, voting doesn't work and you need guns.
    What, in your opinion, has occurred during the last several years that required the threat of violence against government representatives through 2nd Amendment remedies?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What, in your opinion, has occurred during the last several years that required the threat of violence against government representatives through 2nd Amendment remedies?
    I don't think we are yet at the point which will necessitate the use of violence against the government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    I would agree with Ikari, we are not at the point where violence is necessary. So what would be the point where violence would be necessary?

    Tyranny in my mind would be far far worse than something Congress could do on their own. Tyranny would have to show itself not only as laws and the forfeit of rights, liberty's and privileges but it would also mean enforcement of such things by changing the laws or illegally using police or the military. That would look very much like the Japanese interment camps during WWII but on a larger scale... or the classic cold-war KGB midnight raids where someone says something controversial and the next day they and their family are suddenly missing never to return.

    The view of such violence wouldn't be one off assassination attempts but would look much more like an insurrection or a French underground of sabotage. In these days, those acts would be called "terrorism" by the tyrants.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't think we are yet at the point which will necessitate the use of violence against the government.
    Thank you. That is my point. The threats of violence against the government have been unnecessary and people need to tone back their threat of 2nd Amendment remedies about things that can be settled through voting, the mechanism provided by our founders.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #46
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thank you. That is my point. The threats of violence against the government have been unnecessary and people need to tone back their threat of 2nd Amendment remedies about things that can be settled through voting, the mechanism provided by our founders.
    No, it's important to stress the necessities of not only guns, but of revolution against the government. The government needs reminders of who is in charge, we need reminders as to our duty and obligation to the Republic. Saying that we have the ultimate say, that we are the sovereigns, and that if government doesn't work right by us it is our right and duty to dispose of it and replace it with one which does is not unnecessary nor unwarranted. It's a reminder to all the players, the government and the People. We are freemen so long as we can maintain our freedom. The Republic can be strong and support our rights and liberties so long as we can keep it. But all government corrupts, and we have duty to protect against that too.

    In my opinion, everyone should have firearms, everyone should be trained in their weapons, everyone should participate in militia activity of some sort.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, it's important to stress the necessities of not only guns, but of revolution against the government. The government needs reminders of who is in charge, we need reminders as to our duty and obligation to the Republic. Saying that we have the ultimate say, that we are the sovereigns, and that if government doesn't work right by us it is our right and duty to dispose of it and replace it with one which does is not unnecessary nor unwarranted. It's a reminder to all the players, the government and the People. We are freemen so long as we can maintain our freedom. The Republic can be strong and support our rights and liberties so long as we can keep it. But all government corrupts, and we have duty to protect against that too.

    In my opinion, everyone should have firearms, everyone should be trained in their weapons, everyone should participate in militia activity of some sort.
    I have not challenged gun rights, and I have not challenged the need to stress our rights as citizens. What I have challenged was the "need" for threats of violence against the government when it is not necessary.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    A little something I encountered at another forum. This (IMO) looks like clear-cut advocacy for the events that took place recently in Arizona. Later on in the discussion, one of these posters even went so far as to quote Jefferson and his liberty/tyranny proclamation (regarding government).

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    Anyone agree?
    I absolutely agree with Jefferson on this quote! But do I think we're at a point of tyranny in our government??? NO! I think if they went all out radical and limit everything in my life, then yes, I will go to war. But we are no where close to this being necessary. Force should only be used when reason has failed completely and the consequences of not using force is greater than the consequences of using it. Taking lives is not something that should ever be done lightly. And we all consider the shooter a mad-man because this level of violence was no where near justified for any political reason in the US right now.

  9. #49
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My opinion is threatening violence every time a person doesn't like what their government does is an extreme contortion of Jeffersons's words.
    As things currently stand, I agree.

    We have not yet reached a point where violence against our government is a reasonable option.

    But we have moved past the point where it wasn't even being considered by any except the most extreme.

    Now, here we are discussing it on a political debate forum - methinks the fact that it even came up is an indication of the levels to which distrust and dislike towards the government have risen.
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As things currently stand, I agree.

    We have not yet reached a point where violence against our government is a reasonable option.

    But we have moved past the point where it wasn't even being considered by any except the most extreme.

    Now, here we are discussing it on a political debate forum - methinks the fact that it even came up is an indication of the levels to which distrust and dislike towards the government have risen.

    And now we are having threats of violence against government representatives when all it takes is an election to change the government. We have the well armed and possibly mentally infirm oxen before the cart in my opinion.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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