View Poll Results: Should elected officials fear for their lives with regard to legislative efforts?

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Thread: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

  1. #31
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, not at all. I am saying we shouldn't threaten violence in stressing the importance of our rights because many (especially the mentally infirm) may take it literally without understanding that it is just rhetoric. There is a reason people don't yell out fire in a crowded building when there isn't one.

    All I'm talking about is lowering the tone with all the 2nd Amendment bravado that has become so prevalent.
    As I understand it, it is literally true that if the government tried to take all (or some?) firearms away from its citizens, there would be violence.

    That's not a bluff and/or rhetoric.
    Education.

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As I understand it, it is literally true that if the government tried to take all (or some?) firearms away from its citizens, there would be violence.

    That's not a bluff and/or rhetoric.
    My point has to do with the threats of violence against the federal government that has been so prevalent when there have been no federal proposals to take away guns during the same period.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #33
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My point has to do with the threats of violence against the federal government that has been so prevalent when there have been no federal proposals to take away guns during the same period.
    Well, it wouldn't do to have anyone forget reality, so constant reminders of it are necessary.

    Is statement of fact a threat?

    Or are there specific, direct threats I haven't heard about?
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    A little something I encountered at another forum. This (IMO) looks like clear-cut advocacy for the events that took place recently in Arizona. Later on in the discussion, one of these posters even went so far as to quote Jefferson and his liberty/tyranny proclamation (regarding government).

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    Anyone agree?
    I agree with Thomas Jefferson, but not the AZ shooter. 2 very different ideologies. You can't pin the actions of some mentally ill radical with a history on the founders.

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Well, it wouldn't do to have anyone forget reality, so constant reminders of it are necessary.

    Is statement of fact a threat?

    Or are there specific, direct threats I haven't heard about?
    Perhaps you missed the coverage of the tea party rallies. Do you remember hearing the statement by Joyce Kaufman, “If Ballots don’t work, Bullets will?"
    Anna

    Or these news items, "the murder of Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. A staged lynching of a Congressman in Maryland, a mock tombstone with a Congressman's name on it in Texas, death threats to a member of Congress in North Carolina, weapons carried into town halls -- all from health care reform opponents."
    VIDEO: Anti-Health Care Reformers Turn to Threats of Violence | RHRealityCheck.org

    I don't think Jefferson meant, "if ballots don't work, bullets will."
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-13-11 at 11:13 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Perhaps you missed the coverage of the tea party rallies. Do you remember hearing the statement by Joyce Kaufman, “If Ballots don’t work, Bullets will?"
    Anna

    Or these news items, "the murder of Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. A staged lynching of a Congressman in Maryland, a mock tombstone with a Congressman's name on it in Texas, death threats to a member of Congress in North Carolina, weapons carried into town halls -- all from health care reform opponents."
    VIDEO: Anti-Health Care Reformers Turn to Threats of Violence | RHRealityCheck.org

    I don't think Jefferson meant, "if ballots don't work, bullets will."
    Actually, since I don't watch TV at all, it's very probable that I DID miss the coverage of those stories...And, since I have only vague memories of some chance reference to a few of those events, I must have...

    And, I must disagree - I think Jefferson meant precisely "if ballots don't work, bullets will". Albeit, he probably meant alot more ballot attempts before bullets than some people might be saying...
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Actually, since I don't watch TV at all, it's very probable that I DID miss the coverage of those stories...And, since I have only vague memories of some chance reference to a few of those events, I must have...

    And, I must disagree - I think Jefferson meant precisely "if ballots don't work, bullets will". Albeit, he probably meant alot more ballot attempts before bullets than some people might be saying...
    My opinion is threatening violence every time a person doesn't like what their government does is an extreme contortion of Jeffersons's words.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #38
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My opinion is threatening violence every time a person doesn't like what their government does is an extreme contortion of Jeffersons's words.
    I agree with your statement, but also disagree. Jefferson would surely not agree with the murder of legislators and the lunacy that occurred in Arizona. However, Jefferson was a great fan of the French Revolution, and defended it even in the face of the criticisms placed against it by the Federalists for the extreme viloence that the FR wrought. Jefferson even went so far as to say that revolution about every 50 years would be good for the country. So while many Americans like to view the Founders as demi-gods, these men certainly had their dark streaks. Though in the time of Jefferson, many feared a rise of Monarchy in the US, and thus may have lent context to his words. Hell, many in the US were calling for Washington to be crowned king!

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I agree with your statement, but also disagree. Jefferson would surely not agree with the murder of legislators and the lunacy that occurred in Arizona. However, Jefferson was a great fan of the French Revolution, and defended it even in the face of the criticisms placed against it by the Federalists for the extreme viloence that the FR wrought. Jefferson even went so far as to say that revolution about every 50 years would be good for the country. So while many Americans like to view the Founders as demi-gods, these men certainly had their dark streaks. Though in the time of Jefferson, many feared a rise of Monarchy in the US, and thus may have lent context to his words. Hell, many in the US were calling for Washington to be crowned king!
    And I agree that if the US were facing the rise of a Monarchy, threats of overthrowing the government might be in order, but that is not what we have today.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #40
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Well what do you think he meant? 'cause I sort of get the impression he meant what he said.
    I know what Jefferson's opinion is, I can look it up myself. Don't need you to recite his as though it's yours. And frankly, when Jefferson said last resort (if he did) he meant it needs to happen, and well before it's too damn late. Now I don't believe that representatives should fear for their lives, or that the Tucson shooting was justified (it wasn't). But these Washington SOB's need to understand where the line is, and that they were elected by a populace that means business. They aren't kings, and shouldn't get anymore protection than the average American. Only the President and Vice President due to their low number and high level of responsibility.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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