View Poll Results: Should elected officials fear for their lives with regard to legislative efforts?

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Thread: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

  1. #21
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Seeing how it would require a significant stretch to claim that the government is a tyranny at this point, and specifically that this congresswomen represented such, I would hardly agree at all that this falls in line with what Jefferson was suggesting. I find it disturbing that anyone would find this to be a good or useful thing, whether they state it as such or whether their actions show their beliefs as such.
    Yup, at this point we still do have control, even if we don't wish to exercise it that much. The government is not at the stage where it would necessitate violence against it. That's not to say that I think Jefferson is wrong. I think what he said is a stern warning to us all. There could be a time when it is necessary, and if such time should ever be reached; then we need to understand that in order to preserve liberty, we would have to fight for it. But even in that situation, what this guy did was not going to help in that regards. It was too sloppy, too reckless, and involved too many citizens. If it were necessary to fight, you don't do it by running into a building and start shooting up the place. You have to be calculated and precise, target government officials, government authority, government buildings. It would have to be made clear that the People at large are not the targets, but rather it is the tyrannical government which is being targeted. But that's to say you'd be at the point where you are left with no other option, and we are not at that point.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #22
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    bah double post
    Last edited by Ikari; 01-13-11 at 12:38 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #23
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    There is no reason for hyperbole here. The OP post a thoughtful discussion in my view. No doubt you'll come back and say I support the killing of congressmen along with skippy and RH. We ought to discuss what Jefferson meant by that statement, and when it is appropriate to defend one's rights.
    Lets define "tyranny".
    The health care bill was very close to this. That all people pay for health care, is IMO, good.
    Not everyone sees it this way, and they do have their points.
    I enjoy and benefit from subsidized health care , why should everyone not benefit from the same?
    Last edited by earthworm; 01-13-11 at 12:38 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #24
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    We're all capable of saying some pretty stupid things from time to time, even Jefferson.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  5. #25
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    We're all capable of saying some pretty stupid things from time to time, even Jefferson.
    However, what he said was not stupid. It's in fact a very important piece for the continued pursuit of freedom and liberty.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #26
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    We're all capable of saying some pretty stupid things from time to time, even Jefferson.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    However, what he said was not stupid. It's in fact a very important piece for the continued pursuit of freedom and liberty.
    Q.E.D.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  7. #27
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yup, at this point we still do have control, even if we don't wish to exercise it that much. The government is not at the stage where it would necessitate violence against it. That's not to say that I think Jefferson is wrong. I think what he said is a stern warning to us all. There could be a time when it is necessary, and if such time should ever be reached; then we need to understand that in order to preserve liberty, we would have to fight for it. But even in that situation, what this guy did was not going to help in that regards. It was too sloppy, too reckless, and involved too many citizens. If it were necessary to fight, you don't do it by running into a building and start shooting up the place. You have to be calculated and precise, target government officials, government authority, government buildings. It would have to be made clear that the People at large are not the targets, but rather it is the tyrannical government which is being targeted. But that's to say you'd be at the point where you are left with no other option, and we are not at that point.
    Do you think a mentally unbalanced person (not referring to the shooter in this case necessarily) would understand all those nuances? Or, would he maybe just hear the constant refrain that government is bad and must be stopped with our 2nd Amendment rights?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #28
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    I believe what Jefferson meant, as well as what I believe, is that legislators must understand their role and the importance it has. Legislators many times are voting on issues that may substantially alter the lives of Americans and must have a healthy fear of the people in that they are not above their reach, nor operating in a vacuum. If legislators are voting to suspend the rights of those they have sworn to protect and serve, then they should fear an uprising. Yet, in general legislation, they should only fear the vote of the people, and realize that they are civil servants to the people.

  9. #29
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Do you think a mentally unbalanced person (not referring to the shooter in this case necessarily) would understand all those nuances? Or, would he maybe just hear the constant refrain that government is bad and must be stopped with our 2nd Amendment rights?
    I'm not sure what a mentally imbalanced person would understand, I'm not mentally imbalanced. Are you saying we shouldn't stress the importance of our rights because a crazy person out there may misinterpret it?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #30
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not sure what a mentally imbalanced person would understand, I'm not mentally imbalanced. Are you saying we shouldn't stress the importance of our rights because a crazy person out there may misinterpret it?
    No, not at all. I am saying we shouldn't threaten violence in stressing the importance of our rights because many (especially the mentally infirm) may take it literally without understanding that it is just rhetoric. There is a reason people don't yell out fire in a crowded building when there isn't one.

    All I'm talking about is lowering the tone with all the 2nd Amendment bravado that has become so prevalent.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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