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Thread: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

  1. #11
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    A little something I encountered at another forum. This (IMO) looks like clear-cut advocacy for the events that took place recently in Arizona. Later on in the discussion, one of these posters even went so far as to quote Jefferson and his liberty/tyranny proclamation (regarding government).

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    Anyone agree?
    What forum was this posted on?

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    As long as we have the freedom to vote our conscience without duress, and representative government, our lawmakers should have nothing to fear but the next election. Loughner's actions have nothing to do with patriotism or fighting tyranny.
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Come on, man, all you need to do is "diagnose the problem", find a "second amendment solution", "lock and load" and "take out" the opposition.

    and then you wag your sanctimonious little finger in the faces of anybody who might actually reject this sort of rhetoric while calling THEM the "political hack".
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    Anyone agree?
    Seeing how it would require a significant stretch to claim that the government is a tyranny at this point, and specifically that this congresswomen represented such, I would hardly agree at all that this falls in line with what Jefferson was suggesting. I find it disturbing that anyone would find this to be a good or useful thing, whether they state it as such or whether their actions show their beliefs as such.

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Seeing how it would require a significant stretch to claim that the government is a tyranny at this point, and specifically that this congresswomen represented such, I would hardly agree at all that this falls in line with what Jefferson was suggesting. I find it disturbing that anyone would find this to be a good or useful thing, whether they state it as such or whether their actions show their beliefs as such.
    i don't think anyone is asserting that such action should be exercised by intent or design, but that the very result - making our representatives wary of the people who put them in office - confirms Jefferson's observations
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i don't think anyone is asserting that such action should be exercised by intent or design, but that the very result - making our representatives wary of the people who put them in office - confirms Jefferson's observations
    Except it doesn't. Jeffersons comment was focused much more on a societal fear; as in the leigitimate fear that perhaps the citizenry could cause significant problems for the government as a whole and thus assures freedom.

    Random one off killings of officials does not promote liberty, nor a fear of "the people" as a whole as would be required for Jeffersons statement. This is evident in the attempts by a representitive currently attempting to stifle free speech and using this as a means of doing so...essentially removing liberty, not adding to it.

    Large scale threats posed by "The people", the citizenry as a majority force, CAN be a way to keep liberty within the governmental system. However, such a large scale act would take an actual tyranny to be in place...which is not the case currently and why there is NOT a large scale revolt.

    This kind of action, on a SMALL scale, actually works to reduce the amount of liberty available to us as over reaction to it is taken which typically revolves around vesting additional power into the government to "protect" them as such. This happens because, without the large scale movement of "The People" that comes about with a tyranny, individuals by and large REJECT the action of the lone individual and thus are more likely to go along with liberty-removing manuevers to "prevent" it in the future.

    So no, I don't think this is at all or in any way similar to what Jefferson is advocating.

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except it doesn't. Jeffersons comment was focused much more on a societal fear; as in the leigitimate fear that perhaps the citizenry could cause significant problems for the government as a whole and thus assures freedom.

    Random one off killings of officials does not promote liberty, nor a fear of "the people" as a whole as would be required for Jeffersons statement. This is evident in the attempts by a representitive currently attempting to stifle free speech and using this as a means of doing so...essentially removing liberty, not adding to it.

    Large scale threats posed by "The people", the citizenry as a majority force, CAN be a way to keep liberty within the governmental system. However, such a large scale act would take an actual tyranny to be in place...which is not the case currently and why there is NOT a large scale revolt.

    This kind of action, on a SMALL scale, actually works to reduce the amount of liberty available to us as over reaction to it is taken which typically revolves around vesting additional power into the government to "protect" them as such. This happens because, without the large scale movement of "The People" that comes about with a tyranny, individuals by and large REJECT the action of the lone individual and thus are more likely to go along with liberty-removing manuevers to "prevent" it in the future.

    So no, I don't think this is at all or in any way similar to what Jefferson is advocating.
    to accept your view one must recognize that the members of congress were not made more wary for their individual safety after that shooting
    based on what i am seeing, such conclusion would be very wrong
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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    to accept your view one must recognize that the members of congress were not made more wary for their individual safety after that shooting
    based on what i am seeing, such conclusion would be very wrong
    Incorrect.

    To accept my view one must recognize that the members of congress are made more wary of taking action that restricts liberty.

    Considering one immedietely ran forth to attempt and push legislation that ristricts liberty, and portions of a political party are using this as a means to push essentially societal limitations on free speech, I would say that such a result absolutely has not happened.

    Based on what I'm seeing, the conclussion that somehow the act of a single crazy individual is going to increase liberty by scaring officials into taking actions contrary to liberty is wrong

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    If this is true, then we are in trouble.
    Have I ever said that we need a better people?

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    Re: AZ Shooting: Tree of Liberty watering?

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    A little something I encountered at another forum. This (IMO) looks like clear-cut advocacy for the events that took place recently in Arizona. Later on in the discussion, one of these posters even went so far as to quote Jefferson and his liberty/tyranny proclamation (regarding government).

    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    Anyone agree?
    So, are we saying that Thomas Jefferson advocates that citizens shoot politicians when they fear that the government is "overstepping".
    Was he not a slave-owner as well?
    This is the 21st century, a Martin L King replaces Jefferson.
    National health care replaces bankruptcy and early death..

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