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Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

Were the Nazis...

  • Predominantly Right Wing

    Votes: 66 51.2%

  • Predominantly Left Wing

    Votes: 27 20.9%

  • Largely in the center

    Votes: 10 7.8%

  • Don't know/unsure/no opinion/none of the above

    Votes: 26 20.2%
  • Total voters
    129
Goshin said:
Okay, I officially no longer care whether the Nazi's were left-wing, right-wing, or in the middle of a four-dimensional Klein bottle. :coffeepap:
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Here's a question then...

Is it possible for fascism to be a good thing?

Say, without some or all of the various negative parts Nazism involved?

No state-sponsored/run racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc…
 
The Mark said:
Here's a question then...

Is it possible for fascism to be a good thing?

Say, without some or all of the various negative parts Nazism involved?

No state-sponsored/run racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc…
Click to expand...

Depending on what definitions one uses.... most fascist states have been expansionist aggressors.

An authoritarian state could be a good thing in some cases, if it were well-run and well-ordered, and lacked the racist/bigoted components of Nazi'ism... but it isn't my cup of tea. I'm too individualistic.
 
Goshin said:
Depending on what definitions one uses.... most fascist states have been expansionist aggressors.

An authoritarian state could be a good thing in some cases, if it were well-run and well-ordered, and lacked the racist/bigoted components of Nazi'ism... but it isn't my cup of tea. I'm too individualistic.
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There is that...
 
Massive government, little freedom......left-wing.
 
Mellie said:
Massive government, little freedom......left-wing.
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If freedom is defined as the power to do what you want, then freedom is hard to come by in any case.

So what's the best/least dangerous?
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I might have been simplifying it a bit, but being a centrist is generally the "safest" route; it is doing what seems natural and practical as problems arise, without much idealization of your civilization.

Not always the highest performance, but the most consistently useful over long periods of time.

By the way, the American Revolution was culturally conservative (by and large), economically inconsistent, and socially progressive.
 
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SirPwn4lot said:
Were the Nazi Party of Germany a right wing or left wing establishment?

I figure this is a better place to discuss than on someone else's thread like we were :)

Opinions?
Click to expand...

The Nolan Chart may be able to help you out:

NolanChart.png
 
Comments from the other thread:

Remember. Nazism is closer to fascism than anything else. The father of modern fascism was Mussolini, who, in his description of fascism, indicated that it was completely opposed to socialism and any left wing ideology. Fascism really can't be categorized on a right-left spectrum, though the kind of fascism that Nazism was can be more easily described as "far right" than anything else. Those who try to paint it as "leftwing" don't know what they are talking about, and are only spewing partisan distortions.

Here is the link to Mussolini's description:

Mussolini - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM

And a few key quotes:

Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and the economic sphere.
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The Fascist negation of socialism, democracy, liberalism, should not, however, be interpreted as implying a desire to drive the world backwards to positions occupied prior to 1789, a year commonly referred to as that which opened the demo-liberal century.
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Notice how it is anti-liberal and anti-socialist.

Nazism, a specific form of fascism, is anti-liberal, anti-communist (remember how much Hitler hated the communists), anti-socialist, and anti-capitalist. Also remember... during the Night of the Long Knives, Hilter killed George Strasser and all members of the left-wing part of the Nazi Party. From this point on, Nazism was solely right wing.
 
Also remember... socialism is about equality. Nazism was anything but that.
 
It's both hard and easy to describe Nazism
Political ideology is not simply "left" or "right" wing. There's economicalnd political left and right wing. Communism believes in economical left (collectives, etc...) and political left (surveillance, etc...). Nazism is a mix. Economical right (economic freedom without regulation or government interference), and political left (surveillance, etc...). It's very incorrect to say that Communism and Nazism (of Fascism for that matter) are similar. In fact, they are very different, with both sides hating the other.
 
Proud South Korean said:
It's both hard and easy to describe Nazism
Political ideology is not simply "left" or "right" wing. There's economicalnd political left and right wing. Communism believes in economical left (collectives, etc...) and political left (surveillance, etc...). Nazism is a mix. Economical right (economic freedom without regulation or government interference), and political left (surveillance, etc...). It's very incorrect to say that Communism and Nazism (of Fascism for that matter) are similar. In fact, they are very different, with both sides hating the other.
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Even the authoritarian/libertarian left/right dual spectra view is laughably simplistic.

I prefer to take things issue by issue, these sorts of descriptions attempt to craft a model on top of innumerable individual issues, and one large flaw of this process is that it basically takes an average issue view, ignoring extremes. This allows people to take that average and claim that therefore one issue that someone is for therefore fits the curve perfectly.

For example, imagine if Glenn Beck acknowledged global warming and was a true blue environmentalist. Just because on average his views tend to be "right wing" doesn't mean that that individual view on that individual issue fits the curve.

There are numerable other problems, but I think I've made my point.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Comments from the other thread:

Remember. Nazism is closer to fascism than anything else. The father of modern fascism was Mussolini, who, in his description of fascism, indicated that it was completely opposed to socialism and any left wing ideology. Fascism really can't be categorized on a right-left spectrum, though the kind of fascism that Nazism was can be more easily described as "far right" than anything else. Those who try to paint it as "leftwing" don't know what they are talking about, and are only spewing partisan distortions.

Here is the link to Mussolini's description:

Mussolini - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM

And a few key quotes:




Notice how it is anti-liberal and anti-socialist.

Nazism, a specific form of fascism, is anti-liberal, anti-communist (remember how much Hitler hated the communists), anti-socialist, and anti-capitalist. Also remember... during the Night of the Long Knives, Hilter killed George Strasser and all members of the left-wing part of the Nazi Party. From this point on, Nazism was solely right wing.
Click to expand...

There is a major difference between how Mussolini described fascism and how he carried it out.

Ultimately, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism are neither left wing nor right wing. They are totalitarian ideologies based upon maximized authoritarian control and minimized individual freedom. The major difference between the two had to do with nationalism and mysticism.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Also remember... socialism is about equality. Nazism was anything but that.
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But the equality of socialism espoused by historical figures is nothing to pine for. The equality of socialism has almost always (I can't think of an example to the contrary) led to slavery and starvation.
 
SirPwn4lot said:
Were the Nazi Party of Germany a right wing or left wing establishment?

I figure this is a better place to discuss than on someone else's thread like we were :)

Opinions?
Click to expand...

Did you do a search before starting this thread? It's all been hashed out before.
 
The Mark said:
Here's a question then...

Is it possible for fascism to be a good thing?

Say, without some or all of the various negative parts Nazism involved?

No state-sponsored/run racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc…
Click to expand...

Certain aspects of Nazism and fascism are "good".
But even with the "good", these two are "bad", overall , the bottom line..
As much as we malign Hitler, and others, he did care about the German people.
But it was his own definition of the German people that,IMO, did him in..
Excluding minorities was not very nice of this SOB.
An excellent discussion within this thread.
 
ElijahGalt said:
The Nolan Chart may be able to help you out:

NolanChart.png
Click to expand...
I had this mental picture of two spheres, one inside the other, mounted on one of those gyro things...
tedco1.jpg


But methinks I'm nuts...
 
The Mark said:
I had this mental picture of two spheres, one inside the other, mounted on one of those gyro things...
tedco1.jpg


But methinks I'm nuts...
Click to expand...

Naw, more of an 11-dimensional calibai-yau type figure

2009704.standard.jpg


nazis are where the pink folds into the bluish black beside the white.
 
the Nazi party platform was built basically (as near as I can read it) on three things:
1. German National Unity
2. Jews are Subhuman
3. Left-wing economics.

excerpts from the Nazi Party Platform circa 1920 admittedly edited to the economic portions to highlight the point under discussion:

We therefore demand:

11. The abolition of all income obtained without labor or effort. Breaking the Servitude of Interest

12. In view of the tremendous sacrifices in property and blood demanded of the Nation by every war, personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the Nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.

15. We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.

17. We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard of religion or race.

20. In order to make higher education—and thereby entry into leading positions—available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latter’s position or occupation.

21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievement of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people.
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Fascism at it's time was a pretty thoroughly left-wing movement. which is why it was originally admired by leftists in other nations (including the US). even the more disgusting aspects (such as eugenics) had their mirrors in the Progressive elements abroad and in the US.
 
Both fascist and communist states promote a corporatist economy, where the merger of political and economic influence occurs and politicians nationalize all industries.
 
ElijahGalt said:
Both fascist and communist states promote a corporatist economy, where the merger of political and economic influence occurs and politicians nationalize all industries.
Click to expand...

Nazi's did so for the advancement of the state, commies did so to put the means of production in the hands of the working class, while the means were similar, the ends were different.
 
Both fascist and communist states promote a corporatist economy, where the merger of political and economic influence occurs and politicians nationalize all industries.
Click to expand...

Not true. Communists were not corporatist in the slightest. By getting rid of private property, corporations didn't even exist in soviet states. They implemented a command economy where the state is in sole control over all economic resources.
 
spud_meister said:
Nazi's did so for the advancement of the state, commies did so to put the means of production in the hands of the working class, while the means were similar, the ends were different.
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As I recall the Soviet Union ended up with one large poor class, a relatively small privileged class of citizens, and an insanely small class of incredibly well off statesman.

It did very little to get rid of class barriers lol.


rathi said:
Not true. Communists were not corporatist in the slightest. By getting rid of private property, corporations didn't even exist in soviet states. They implemented a command economy where the state is in sole control over all economic resources.
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Well, what is a corporation but a state without the power of law? By making the state supreme instead of corporations you have much the same situation except the controlling group has no restraint at all, while corporations had to at least answer somewhat to the state, even if those corporations were totalitarian by nature.

Not a dig at Marxism, a dig at 20th Century communism.
 
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SirPwn4lot said:
As I recall the Soviet Union ended up with one large poor class, a relatively small privileged class of citizens, and an insanely small class of incredibly well off statesman.

It did very little to get rid of class barriers lol.
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I wasn't commenting on the practical appliction, just the reasoning behind it. :mrgreen:
 
spud_meister said:
Nazi's did so for the advancement of the state, commies did so to put the means of production in the hands of the working class, while the means were similar, the ends were different.
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First of all, the intentions are irrelevant. Both are totalitarian regimes with corporarist systems. Though the intended ends (you really meant the ends were different, the means were similar) were different, the systems in place were really very similar.

And I don't see the communist leaders of history as protecting the working class.
 
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