View Poll Results: Were the Nazis...

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  • Predominantly Right Wing

    123 50.20%
  • Predominantly Left Wing

    75 30.61%
  • Largely in the center

    18 7.35%
  • Don't know/unsure/no opinion/none of the above

    29 11.84%
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Thread: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

  1. #171
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Who created the chart is irrelevant. What would you use? Simply saying a policy is "left" or "right" tells us next to nothing about the actual policy. Mussolini himself made it a point to reject the Left and the Right, borrowing many elements from both "sides." The left-right paradigm has been outdated since the end of the French Revolution.
    You've got it all wrong DA.
    See Conservatives are right wing, like the Nazis because, they were racist, authoritarian, militaristic and imperialist.

    Liberals, Democrats, Socialists, et all, have never had those attributes, ever.
    Oh wait....

    They've revised history to label anything that has those attributes as right wing, even though they completely ignore the characteristics that closely attribute them with the liberal parties.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Maybe it's worth pointing out that there are quite a few differences between Italian fascism and German Nazism. They go so far that some historians think Nazism should be a different category on its own, instead of being subsummized under the label "fascism".

    So I assume Italian fascism had adopted more elements from the left than German Nazism.
    German Nazism did accept quite a few economic policies that were similar to the Progressives at the time.
    Like, the Volkswagen project, Reforming dividends, and other strict controls over the market economy, something not exactly Conservative.
    People are just cherry picking, what is and is not Conservative and Liberal.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #173
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    German Nazism did accept quite a few economic policies that were similar to the Progressives at the time.
    Like, the Volkswagen project, Reforming dividends, and other strict controls over the market economy, something not exactly Conservative.
    People are just cherry picking, what is and is not Conservative and Liberal.
    Maybe these economic policies are not "right" by American standards today, but I believe they have much in common with the conservative-monarchist right-wing economic polices of the Kaiserreich. The monarchy in Germany was protectionist, regulated much. It was even Bismarck who introduced the first public pension system, unemployment support system and healthcare system in Germany -- and you won't find many people who claim Bismarck or the Kaiser were "leftists".

    I guess one big problem in this debate is that many have the historically very inaccurate idea in mind that "right" means "small government", while "left" means "big government". Economic policy certainly is one factor, but historically, it is definitely not the most important one. The German right, especially the monarchist far-right, was pretty much "big government".
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #174
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Maybe these economic policies are not "right" by American standards today, but I believe they have much in common with the conservative-monarchist right-wing economic polices of the Kaiserreich. The monarchy in Germany was protectionist, regulated much. It was even Bismarck who introduced the first public pension system, unemployment support system and healthcare system in Germany -- and you won't find many people who claim Bismarck or the Kaiser were "leftists".

    I guess one big problem in this debate is that many have the historically very inaccurate idea in mind that "right" means "small government", while "left" means "big government". Economic policy certainly is one factor, but historically, it is definitely not the most important one. The German right, especially the monarchist far-right, was pretty much "big government".
    You understand this and I understand this, but quite a few others in this thread, do not.
    They are very quick to assume, German Conservative = American Conservative.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #175
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Who created the chart is irrelevant. What would you use? Simply saying a policy is "left" or "right" tells us next to nothing about the actual policy. Mussolini himself made it a point to reject the Left and the Right, borrowing many elements from both "sides." The left-right paradigm has been outdated since the end of the French Revolution.
    Irrelevant my aunt emma. It was created by libertarians for the expressed purpose of charting libertarians to justify the various opinions of libertarians and not place them as rightists on he normal continuum in American political thinking.

    That was the entire purpose of it.
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  6. #176
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Hmmm, I didn't use the Nolan chart.
    Pay better attention next time.
    sure - no libertarians ever use the nolan chart....
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  7. #177
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Irrelevant my aunt emma. It was created by libertarians for the expressed purpose of charting libertarians to justify the various opinions of libertarians and not place them as rightists on he normal continuum in American political thinking.

    That was the entire purpose of it.
    Do you have proof to advance your conspiracy theory?
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  8. #178
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You understand this and I understand this, but quite a few others in this thread, do not.
    They are very quick to assume, German Conservative = American Conservative.
    Yep, and that's certainly not the case. I believe I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I do it again. The political parties in the Weimar Republic are usually placed on the left/right-spectrum in this manner:

    RIGHT: -- DNVP (monarchist anti-republicans) -- DVP (national-liberal republic-sceptics) -- Catholic Centrists (Christian pro-republicans) -- DDP (social liberal pro-republicans) -- SPD (anti-revolutionary Marxist pro-republicans) -- KPD (pro-revolutionary Marxist-Leninist anti-republicans) -- LEFT

    The American Republicans are, as far as I know, not homogenous, but combine many different philosophies and schools of thought. Three important among them seem to be Christian right (social conservatives who are not necessarily "small government"), strong nationalists and interventionists with an authoritarian streak ("Neo-Cons") and moderate libertarians (economic conservatives, who often are moderate on social questions). You find such different people as Rick Santorum, Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul within the Republican Party.

    Of course it's never entirely accurate to make such a transfer, but maybe it's not too far off when I say that due to the political system in Germany, these different ideologies were distributed over different parties: "Christian right" ideas were strongest in the Catholic Centrist party in Weimar Germany, authoritarian militarists/nationalists in the far-right DNVP and moderate libertarians (those who are most "small government") in the center-left DDP.

    So the very group on the American right, which is usually identified with "small government", was strongest in a German party left of center. Both left and right were "big government".

    But it's worth noting that even in America today, there are "right wing" ideas which are not "small government": Many on the Christian right, for example, favor social programs in favor of supporting poor, or restrictions of civil rights in order to legislate Christian morals -- yet they are called "right wing", because they are socially very conservative. Likewise, there are libertarians with a very "right wing" economic policy of "small government", yet they often share individualist ideas about civil rights with left wing progressives (on homosexuality, abortion, etc).

    That's why a one-dimensional scale is really limited. It only reaches so far to explain political ideologies.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  9. #179
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Do you have proof to advance your conspiracy theory?
    Nolan Chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    __________________________________________________ _
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  10. #180
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yep, and that's certainly not the case. I believe I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I do it again. The political parties in the Weimar Republic are usually placed on the left/right-spectrum in this manner:

    RIGHT: -- DNVP (monarchist anti-republicans) -- DVP (national-liberal republic-sceptics) -- Catholic Centrists (Christian pro-republicans) -- DDP (social liberal pro-republicans) -- SPD (anti-revolutionary Marxist pro-republicans) -- KPD (pro-revolutionary Marxist-Leninist anti-republicans) -- LEFT

    The American Republicans are, as far as I know, not homogenous, but combine many different philosophies and schools of thought. Three important among them seem to be Christian right (social conservatives who are not necessarily "small government"), strong nationalists and interventionists with an authoritarian streak ("Neo-Cons") and moderate libertarians (economic conservatives, who often are moderate on social questions). You find such different people as Rick Santorum, Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul within the Republican Party.

    Of course it's never entirely accurate to make such a transfer, but maybe it's not too far off when I say that due to the political system in Germany, these different ideologies were distributed over different parties: "Christian right" ideas were strongest in the Catholic Centrist party in Weimar Germany, authoritarian militarists/nationalists in the far-right DNVP and moderate libertarians (those who are most "small government") in the center-left DDP.

    So the very group on the American right, which is usually identified with "small government", was strongest in a German party left of center. Both left and right were "big government".

    But it's worth noting that even in America today, there are "right wing" ideas which are not "small government": Many on the Christian right, for example, favor social programs in favor of supporting poor, or restrictions of civil rights in order to legislate Christian morals -- yet they are called "right wing", because they are socially very conservative. Likewise, there are libertarians with a very "right wing" economic policy of "small government", yet they often share individualist ideas about civil rights with left wing progressives (on homosexuality, abortion, etc).
    Very well put.
    Of course, be prepared to be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    That's why a one-dimensional scale is really limited. It only reaches so far to explain political ideologies.
    That must make you a libertarian, trying to not be associated with the right.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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