View Poll Results: Were the Nazis...

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  • Predominantly Right Wing

    123 50.20%
  • Predominantly Left Wing

    75 30.61%
  • Largely in the center

    18 7.35%
  • Don't know/unsure/no opinion/none of the above

    29 11.84%
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Thread: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

  1. #141
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Stalin's Concentration Camp



    source:Stalin is voted third greatest Russian in TV poll modelled on BBC contest | Mail Online

    Hitler's Concentration Camp



    source:http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...caust/jbb1.jpg

    North-Korea Concentration Camp



    We can continue to other twenty countries suffered by Leftism.

    Now you've gone and done it. Some leftist or European is going to produce an Abu-Ghraib picture or a GITMO prisoner to exonerate their decrepit past or to "lighten the burden."
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-14-11 at 05:54 PM.

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  2. #142
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    When one looks at the data under Stalin, it's still clear that portions of the population saw benefits under that regime which they did not receive under previous regimes (literacy increases and healthcare for women, specifically, comes to mind).
    So what did we really do here? Flip the numbers and identified a portion? This is hardly across the board and it was a running start into misery. Most things that start out in a gallop lose steam quickly because the measures to correctly sustain the gallop were never there. I still maintain that the numbers are illusive. Put a genius and a retard in a room together and half your population is of superior intellect (if you even consider the retard in the consensus, in which case your entire population proves your greatness.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But it would be much like eating gruel is preferable to starvation.
    But plenty did starve under these "5-Year Plans" to produce a designed people and notmerely a small fraction. It was like designer clothing for humanity. Not all benefitted and the numbers tend to produce only those that did. And those that did went no where because the society that produced them did not allow for growth. Most of their standards could not compete with the standards of the educational West. I think we are measuring a people who have stepped two rungs above the **** pile, but still remained up to their hips in it.

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  3. #143
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I think we are measuring a people who have stepped two rungs above the **** pile, but still remained up to their hips in it.
    I think this describes the situation correctly.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  4. #144
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    If we're now talking specifically about Fascist Italy, then it is inaccurate to generalize the entire timespan of Italian economic planning in one convenient sentence. The fascist system in Italy worked differently at different times. Historians pretty much agree that Mussolini did not have an economic plan, and literally used the Italian economy as a social experiment.
    Mussolini never exerted a level of control over the Italian economy comparable to USSR during his entire rule.

    You make it sound like the businesses had control over Mussolini and not the other way around.
    In 1943, Mussolini was stripped of his power by the grand of council of fascism of which all Italian corporate interests were a part. Nobody had total control over the other, it was a power sharing agreement for mutual benefit.

    I think that's a despicable statement that doesn't consider any of the hard facts. To consider that Nazi Germany allowed any autonomy- at all, is ridiculous. The Italian and German governments controlled so much of the aspects of business at various points of their career that it would almost be offensive to consider it a "mixed economy." If the government decides who you may hire, what you may produce and when, how you may operate, and not to mention obliterating unions and any form of bargaining, how is that mixed? How is that autonomous? It may be true that Italy did not fully nationalize its industries and the businessman actually retained his profits. But that's a far cry from claiming that Hitler and Mussolini allowed quite a bit of economic freedom.
    Hitler and Mussolini did not control business directly. They had a mutually beneficial relationship in which they received voluntary cooperation of their political goals in return for granting massive profits. While it certainly was a far cry from a capitalist system, it was even further from the total control of a planned economy.

    There is no single definition of corporatism. There are only interpretations of the concept. The base root of corporatism is corpus- body and such meaning can have multiple applications. I, however, take the interpretation of Herman Goering when he infamously stated that fascism should rightly be called corporatism, because "it is the merger of state and corporatist power." I tend to view socialist, fascist, and hardcore Keynesian economies as corporatist. In terms of our comparison, the difference is extremely subtle. Whether the government outright nationalizes the industry or subtly takes it over and controls it (but allows the owners to retain a portion of the capital), it is of little relevance when examining the large picture. Both governments sought to merge the power of state and corporatist bodies. Russia, under Lenin's NEP, was a form of state capitalism, though I realize it did not last long.
    Corporatism is defined as cooperation between private interests and the state. The USSR didn't have a corporatist system because no private interests existed. There are nuances of meaning in the definition, but you need both private ownership and a state to meet the basic definition.

    I don't understand how anyone could claim that fascist Italy or Nazi Germany were mixed economies. If they were, it was 95% socialist and 5% capitalist. You know how some pundits and critics will claim that Western European countries are "socialist" (even though the Europeans themselves will identify as social democrats)? Well, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were the largest "socialist" states ever to appear in that region.
    Fascist economies typically had 3 distinct parts. 1) Directly nationalized industry 2) industry allied with the state 3) industry operating on its own. Of those three parts, the majority was 2), following by 1) and 3). I like to label 1) as socialism, 2) as corporatism and 3) as capitalism, but I care more about content than the specific term.

  5. #145
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    There is also a qualitative difference between a merger and a hostile takeover.
    Don't work out, work in.

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  6. #146
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Lol, a funny question, maybe you've forgotten that the name of Nazi's party was "National- Socialist", not "National-Conservative" etc. The Nazis were clearly Left-Wing, it is a stupidity to deny the obviously fact.
    Well, if you imply that parties or groups can be known by their names, then North Korea would be a very peaceful, democratic nation as its name is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". By following your logic, North Korea is a very peaceful, democratic, people-loving nation. Rofl
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
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  7. #147
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Mussolini never exerted a level of control over the Italian economy comparable to USSR during his entire rule.
    I will not disagree.



    In 1943, Mussolini was stripped of his power by the grand of council of fascism of which all Italian corporate interests were a part. Nobody had total control over the other, it was a power sharing agreement for mutual benefit.
    It was a mutual benefit, but it seems clear that the fascists at the council representing the corporate interests were, in fact, bureaucrats. Was Dino Grandi any sort of leader in the private industries?

    Hitler and Mussolini did not control business directly. They had a mutually beneficial relationship in which they received voluntary cooperation of their political goals in return for granting massive profits. While it certainly was a far cry from a capitalist system, it was even further from the total control of a planned economy.
    I think you may be trying to do a stone-cleaning of fascist economics by insinuating that voluntary cooperation and economic liberty were alive and well in Italy. It's hard to imagine liberty, of any kind, being well received in fascist Italy. As I read about the various controls on private industry by the fascist Italy, it occurs to me that the central authority was trying to plan something. Like I've been repeating, it's not an overt takeover of business. But it's damn near the same thing. It appears that Mussolini left a shell of private enterprise to appease special interest groups and to seduce the general public. It appeared nothing more than a shell.

    Do you believe that Keynesian economic practice is lending itself to the powers of corporatist ideology?

    Corporatism is defined as cooperation between private interests and the state. The USSR didn't have a corporatist system because no private interests existed. There are nuances of meaning in the definition, but you need both private ownership and a state to meet the basic definition.
    I view your interpretation as very simplistic. I am not yet convinced that property ownership has to be the sole indicator of a corporatist state. Both states, IMHO, attempted to command the economy. Their ends were the same but their means were different. And whether or not you nationalize an industry and place a bureaucrat in charge or hold an industry at ransom and force an alliance, it is all an attempt to merge state and corporate power through force. The only major difference is symbolism and ritual.



    Fascist economies typically had 3 distinct parts. 1) Directly nationalized industry 2) industry allied with the state 3) industry operating on its own. Of those three parts, the majority was 2), following by 1) and 3). I like to label 1) as socialism, 2) as corporatism and 3) as capitalism, but I care more about content than the specific term.
    I don't find that simple analysis useful. Sorry.

  8. #148
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    Were the Nazi Party of Germany a right wing or left wing establishment?

    I figure this is a better place to discuss than on someone else's thread like we were

    Opinions?
    my friend... in life there is never one clear answer.

    I think Nazis used a left wing approach to gain popularity of the Germans who were then less well off than the Jews back then and quickly took a right wing stance when Hitler's party became the majority power in Germany before WW2 came by.

    In short - left wing policy to keep their followers and right wing policy to keep their political power

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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I don't believe in the left/right line of traditional politics. I think the 3D graph is closer, but still too simplistic.

    The Nazi's were statists, of this there is no doubt. Statism is commonly associated with both the FAR left and the FAR right on the "traditional line".... another indicator of that left/right line's flaws.

    They referred to themselves as "national socialists", and have also been called "fascist"... one term suggests the left, the other suggests the right.

    Frankly, the Nazi's were statist thugs, expansionist imperialists, and mass-murderers, and that's good enough definition for me. I don't think trying to claim they were tied to modern liberalism or modern conservatism is productive or accurate.
    I think what fascist does is to adopt any type of policy disregarding whether left or right as long as it favours them with gaining control over the national and domestic lives of its citizens.

    Control Control Control is how they generate their policies in.
    Funny enough, they dont favour women working and making a living but would rather them stay at home in a mother role. Isn't that actually a regression back into an agricultural economy?
    Last edited by Klaus.C; 12-01-11 at 12:14 AM.

  10. #150
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt
    Whatever profit is made by the factory is immediately deposited into the purse of the party. The party then pays the factory administrator a portion of the profits. Whether the bureaucrat receives profit directly from the factory or from the party is irrelevant. In the Soviet Union, a bureaucrat became a businessman. In Nazi Germany, the businessman became a bureaucrat.
    Except of course for the fact that the bureaucrat wasn't driven by profit, so this entire argument falls to pieces. This is about as absurd as saying that a feudal lord was a businessman because he appropriated the surplus labour of his serfs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case
    Regardless of one's political persuasion, there are some positive aspects to what Stalin implemented. Nothing is ever universally horrible or universally great. If the trends tend toward a dichotomy between one one extreme or the other, and these extremes align with the authors poitical persuasion, the trend is likely to be clouded by political agendas.

    When one looks at the data under Stalin, it's still clear that portions of the population saw benefits under that regime which they did not receive under previous regimes (literacy increases and healthcare for women, specifically, comes to mind). It's also clear that other portions of the population dealt with terrible persecution.
    Again, as I said in another thread, Stalin was part of an entire bureaucracy and the problems that arose in the USSR were due to much more complicated issues than "Stalin said so".
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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