View Poll Results: Were the Nazis...

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  • Predominantly Right Wing

    123 50.20%
  • Predominantly Left Wing

    75 30.61%
  • Largely in the center

    18 7.35%
  • Don't know/unsure/no opinion/none of the above

    29 11.84%
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Thread: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

  1. #131
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You are describing the difference between the elite and the rest.
    From what I've read on the subject, in pre-war Russia there were benefits across the board regarding literacy, education, and hopsital access under Stalin.

    I'm not making an argument in favor of Stalin by simply stating what I've read about the matter.
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    If you wanted wealth and power in the Soviet system, you climbed the ranks of the political structure. Operating a factory mostly meant being forced to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to meet the demands of the planning committee. The true power of the soviet system was in divorcing the concept of wealth through ownership. Administration had certain perks, but they came from the party not the factory.
    Whatever profit is made by the factory is immediately deposited into the purse of the party. The party then pays the factory administrator a portion of the profits. Whether the bureaucrat receives profit directly from the factory or from the party is irrelevant. In the Soviet Union, a bureaucrat became a businessman. In Nazi Germany, the businessman became a bureaucrat.

  3. #133
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Lol, a funny question, maybe you've forgotten that the name of Nazi's party was "National- Socialist", not "National-Conservative" etc. The Nazis were clearly Left-Wing, it is a stupidity to deny the obviously fact.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    From what I've read on the subject, in pre-war Russia there were benefits across the board regarding literacy, education, and hopsital access under Stalin.

    I've read back and forth and the trend seems to be to either applaud Stalin's program or to demonize it depending on the political stance of the individual. But it wasn't "across the board" if the under priveledged or other political party affiliations were not considered. The millions of unfortunate souls were not among the counted. Furthermore, all eduaction was centered around serving the government and it was forced, which produces a severe lack of personal drive to succeed. The numbers are illusive. And what good does education and literacy do if one can't produce and progress the society in which education was provided? Socialism and communism gurantees that no one can rise above another (unless you are among the destined priviledged). It's the modern day system of archaic monarchies and nobility. Historically, these types always produce numbers so as to legitimize the system. Stalin merely introduced a system where one was not before and the numbers imply something untrue.

    People seem fond to point out that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was considered to contain the best education system and produced the largest education populace, but they neglect to produce that most Shia and Kurds were not included in the concensus. Today they are and the numbers show differently as they catch up to the Sunni. I don't think Stalin's education system was much to boast on considering the manner in which it evolved. Give Hitler another 15 years and a handy dandy "5-Year Plan" and he could produce numbers where Germans are the most highly educated in the world. But the number hides an ugly reality.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-14-11 at 05:16 PM.

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  5. #135
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Lol, a funny question, maybe you've forgotten that the name of Nazi's party was "National- Socialist", not "National-Conservative" etc. The Nazis were clearly Left-Wing, it is a stupidity to deny the obviously fact.
    Yes. Why look at their policies and practices when a narrow and shallow look at their name will tell us all we need to know

  6. #136
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That isn't how the Fascist system worked.
    If we're now talking specifically about Fascist Italy, then it is inaccurate to generalize the entire timespan of Italian economic planning in one convenient sentence. The fascist system in Italy worked differently at different times. Historians pretty much agree that Mussolini did not have an economic plan, and literally used the Italian economy as a social experiment.

    Most industrialists willingly participated in fascist economics because they personally gained immense wealth (at the war went badly). The government gave them profitable monopolies in return for going along with then national agenda. In Italy, Mussolini was striped of power when his war made the arrangement no longer profitable.
    You make it sound like the businesses had control over Mussolini and not the other way around.

    Hitler also allowed considerable autonomy until the war became desperate in '44.
    I think that's a despicable statement that doesn't consider any of the hard facts. To consider that Nazi Germany allowed any autonomy- at all, is ridiculous. The Italian and German governments controlled so much of the aspects of business at various points of their career that it would almost be offensive to consider it a "mixed economy." If the government decides who you may hire, what you may produce and when, how you may operate, and not to mention obliterating unions and any form of bargaining, how is that mixed? How is that autonomous? It may be true that Italy did not fully nationalize its industries and the businessman actually retained his profits. But that's a far cry from claiming that Hitler and Mussolini allowed quite a bit of economic freedom.

    The USSR was not corporatist. The best descriptor would be a planned economy, as economic output was determined by a central committee giving orders to state owned factories.
    There is no single definition of corporatism. There are only interpretations of the concept. The base root of corporatism is corpus- body and such meaning can have multiple applications. I, however, take the interpretation of Herman Goering when he infamously stated that fascism should rightly be called corporatism, because "it is the merger of state and corporatist power." I tend to view socialist, fascist, and hardcore Keynesian economies as corporatist. In terms of our comparison, the difference is extremely subtle. Whether the government outright nationalizes the industry or subtly takes it over and controls it (but allows the owners to retain a portion of the capital), it is of little relevance when examining the large picture. Both governments sought to merge the power of state and corporatist bodies. Russia, under Lenin's NEP, was a form of state capitalism, though I realize it did not last long.

    I don't understand how anyone could claim that fascist Italy or Nazi Germany were mixed economies. If they were, it was 95% socialist and 5% capitalist. You know how some pundits and critics will claim that Western European countries are "socialist" (even though the Europeans themselves will identify as social democrats)? Well, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were the largest "socialist" states ever to appear in that region.
    Last edited by Mensch; 01-14-11 at 05:26 PM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yes. Why look at their policies and practices when a narrow and shallow look at their name will tell us all we need to know
    Stalin's Concentration Camp



    source:Stalin is voted third greatest Russian in TV poll modelled on BBC contest | Mail Online

    Hitler's Concentration Camp



    source:http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...caust/jbb1.jpg

    North-Korea Concentration Camp



    We can continue to other twenty countries suffered by Leftism.

    All Lefties are equal, there is no difference between Nazis and Leftists!
    Firstly they tell us fairy - tales, after gaining of power they kill and rob us.


    The last example, the lefty China which industry has been erected "thanks" leftists "outsourcing" and our destroyed.

    Here, the true face of Leftists!

    Ten Methods Commonly Used to Torture Falun Gong Practitioners (Illustrations)

    Warning: do not look the pictures about leftists tortures if you have a weak heart.


    Ten Methods Commonly Used to Torture Falun Gong Practitioners (Illustrations)
    Last edited by Alfons; 01-14-11 at 05:28 PM.
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Stalin's Concentration Camp



    source:Stalin is voted third greatest Russian in TV poll modelled on BBC contest | Mail Online

    Hitler's Concentration Camp



    source:http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...caust/jbb1.jpg

    North-Korea Concentration Camp



    We can continue to other twenty countries suffered by Leftism.

    All Lefties are equal, there is no difference between Nazis and Leftists!
    Firstly they tell us fairy - tales, after gaining of power they kill and rob us.


    The last example, the lefty China which industry has been erected "thanks" leftists "outsourcing" and our destroyed.

    Ten Methods Commonly Used to Torture Falun Gong Practitioners (Illustrations)

    Warning: do not look the pictures about leftists tortures if you have a weak heart.

    Ten Methods Commonly Used to Torture Falun Gong Practitioners (Illustrations)
    If shallow looks don't work, then lets use emotional appeasl and absolutely no logic or reasoning with a liberal sprinkling of fallocy! That's so much better!

  9. #139
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If shallow looks don't work, then lets use emotional appeasl and absolutely no logic or reasoning with a liberal sprinkling of fallocy! That's so much better!
    Some additional information:

    LEFTIST RACISM
    Documents by John Ray
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  10. #140
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I've read back and forth and the trend seems to be to either applaud Stalin's program or to demonize it depending on the political stance of the individual. But it wasn't "across the board" if the under priveledged or other political party affiliations were not considered. The millions of unfortunate souls were not among the counted. Furthermore, all eduaction was centered around serving the government and it was forced, which produces a severe lack of personal drive to succeed. The numbers are illusive. And what good does education and literacy do if one can't produce and progress the society in which education was provided? Socialism and communism gurantees that no one can rise above another (unless you are among the destined priviledged). It's the modern day system of archaic monarchies and nobility. Historically, these types always produce numbers so as to legitimize the system. Stalin merely introduced a system where one was not before and the numbers imply something untrue.

    People seem fond to point out that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was considered to contain the best education system and produced the largest education populace, but they neglect to produce that most Shia and Kurds were not included in the concensus. Today they are and the numbers show differently as they catch up to the Sunni. I don't think Stalin's education system was much to boast on considering the manner in which it evolved. Give Hitler another 15 years and a handy dandy "5-Year Plan" and he could produce numbers where Germans are the most highly educated in the world. But the number hides an ugly reality.
    Regardless of one's political persuasion, there are some positive aspects to what Stalin implemented. Nothing is ever universally horrible or universally great. If the trends tend toward a dichotomy between one one extreme or the other, and these extremes align with the authors poitical persuasion, the trend is likely to be clouded by political agendas.

    When one looks at the data under Stalin, it's still clear that portions of the population saw benefits under that regime which they did not receive under previous regimes (literacy increases and healthcare for women, specifically, comes to mind). It's also clear that other portions of the population dealt with terrible persecution.

    As you said, "Stalin merely introduced a system where one was not before". This implementation of a system led to benefits for a large proportion of the people compared to what existed before, while also leading to horrible declines for another portion of the population..

    Does that mean it was a preferable system to, say, democracy? No, it doesn't.

    Does it mean it was a preferable system to that which came before it?

    Perhaps. One could very easily argue that it was preferable to that since there was a long hstory of major persecution in Russia anyway.

    But it would be much like eating gruel is preferable to starvation.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 01-14-11 at 05:43 PM.
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