View Poll Results: Were the Nazis...

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  • Predominantly Right Wing

    123 50.20%
  • Predominantly Left Wing

    75 30.61%
  • Largely in the center

    18 7.35%
  • Don't know/unsure/no opinion/none of the above

    29 11.84%
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Thread: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

  1. #101
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Ah okay so then you're not actually discussing Nazism or Communism and whether or not they're left right but rather the USSR and Nazi Germany thanks for clarifying.
    Where did you get that idea? Of course, Nazi Germany was the only Nazi state and the Soviet Union was the largest and most powerful communist country in existence. It's not surprising that these two countries would get the most attention in a debate regarding the political spectrum origins of Nazism. But the argument does not have to be exclusive to these two governments. I'm willing to examine other states, at your convenience.

  2. #102
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    As a libertarian you should understand the concept of private property. In Nazi Germany, the government worked in concert with private owners of industry. In the USSR, private owners don't exist and everything is under the control of the government. That single difference is so large that corporatism is much closer to capitalism by comparison. As an example, the U.S. moved from a capitalist to a corporatist system and back in order to produce munitions to fight WW2. A corporatist system has governments awarding contracts to corporations to produce goods, a communist government owns all land and factories and tells them what to make.
    You obviously haven't studied the economy of Nazi Germany. It is well noted that Nazi Germany did not publicly eliminate private industires, but that is not the same thing as saying Nazi Germany awarded contracts to corporations to produce goods. The government of Nazi Germany told the businesses what to produce, how to produce it, when to produce it, who to employ, and how to operate. Again, this goes back to symbolism. Germany also eliminated the labor unions while the Soviets turned labor unions into a branch of the government commissary. Both essentially controlled businesses and labor unions to the very core.

    And by the way, the United States is still arguably running a corporatist economy. It's not as bad as Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, but it's still too corporatist for my taste.

  3. #103
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You have to understand libertarian reasoning in order to understand Elijah's position. Private property to them cannot exist outside of a free market, which is the real lynch pin to them. Once the state interferes in the free market to give one organization benefit over the other, or some such thing, then the free market ceases to be. The left/right spectrum to them is defined on state intervention, not the role or status of private property. Based on that, both Nazism (which I interpret as fascism) and Communism are "left wing" because they both require large amounts of state intervention, regardless of what the role/structure of the state itself is or who the system serves.
    Then perhaps you may be able to enlighten me. Explain how libertarins don't see the role or status of private property in a spectrum that examines state interventionism? If the state intervenes to control all private property, then private property no longer exists in a state that has nationalized its land. Property rights are very dear to the free-market and are the cornerstone of a free society. Your statement is basically a highly inaccurate generalization of Libertarians, as a group, and has no merit in this debate.

  4. #104
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    The Nolan Chart may be able to help you out:
    The picture that replaced the entire thread.

  5. #105
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Courtesy View Post
    In bold. Actually, yes it does. You cannot have a communist society where there is any sort of power structure. It is a stateless society. That's what defines it. There has never been a true communist society. Your example of Catholicism doesn't apply. There is not one clear definition of that belief system, firstly. Secondly, the actions of members of that religion do not define that religion. In a society, if you have a "state" it is not communist. Sorry.
    First of all, I understand your historical note and that is why I brought up Lenin. According to the purist definition lifted from the manifesto, communism is essentially a state-less society. I'm willing to agree with one single caveat. Socialism, on the other hand, was and is considered the transitional period from a capitalist to a communist society. The socialism state does exist in such forms as the Soviet Union, various states throughout the developing world, and even milder forms such as various Western European states. The states that had leaders who advocated for plans to achieve a communist society materialized with the most cruelest of states. So, if you really want to get technical, we could continue this discussion by simply substituting 'socialism' for 'communism.'



    No it didn't because it continued to meet the goals that he identified.
    What about Heinrich Himmler? I've actually spoken to real life neo-Nazis who vehemently hate Himmler because of his treason to the German people. Does that disqualify Himmler from being a "true" Nazi, if at the end of his life, he turned his back on the Germans in the hopes of a gentler punishment? I don't think so. He's still a Nazi and Lenin is still a "socialist."

  6. #106
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    So I'm feeling the whole "Nazis are leftwing" is some sortof new development in the political thought of the right in the last decade or so during resurgence? Because I really never encountered the idea in my life until recently, frankly, during Obama. I don't really know.

  7. #107
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    So I'm feeling the whole "Nazis are leftwing" is some sortof new development in the political thought of the right in the last decade or so during resurgence? Because I really never encountered the idea in my life until recently, frankly, during Obama. I don't really know.
    You still haven't moved beyond the left-right spectrum.

  8. #108
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    No I've been out of the one dimensional paradigm for the better part of a decade, I go down there to talk to ya'll sometimes.

  9. #109
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are incorrect. There has never been a communist government/society. The all are, ultimately fascist dictatorships. A TRUE communist society would never operate in the way we have seen.
    You really believe that?

    If every significant attempt to incorporate on a large scale, communism, results in authoritarian/dictatorships that become poster children for terrible human rights abuses, and terrible economies, all of which fail, or creep out of darkness by shedding some of their ill-fated designs, at what point in the repeated experiment with identical results do you accept it? I mean, the old line about insanity is doing the same thing but expecting different results applies here.

    Think of communism as a computer program with certain givens and parameters. It's lovingly designed, it's mathematically precise, and fantastic. Naive college kids from around the world fall in love with its elegance.

    When we run that program in a human system, it always gives the same, tragic, predictable output. You want to suggest we've never "run the communism program"??
    We run facism, we get the same, predictable output.

    From the perspective of power/freedom, it is so exactly like facism, that it's the same program with a string substitution for "nation" -> "people"
    Oh it's for the nation, oh it's for the people. Meanwhile it's the same authoritarian regime attempting to control the political and economic liberties of the state, comitting terrible atrocities in the name of "nation/people", falling way behind the rest of the world, etc.

    And why take up the left/right argument? It doesn't communicate any information.

  10. #110
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    Re: Were the Nazis Right or Left Wing?

    You obviously haven't studied the economy of Nazi Germany. It is well noted that Nazi Germany did not publicly eliminate private industires, but that is not the same thing as saying Nazi Germany awarded contracts to corporations to produce goods. The government of Nazi Germany told the businesses what to produce, how to produce it, when to produce it, who to employ, and how to operate. Again, this goes back to symbolism. Germany also eliminated the labor unions while the Soviets turned labor unions into a branch of the government commissary. Both essentially controlled businesses and labor unions to the very core.
    You are ignoring the glaring difference between making a deal with private owners and the state owning everything. Nazi policy was to give private owners tax breaks, legalized monopolies and squelch labor problems in return for political support and military buildup. Soviet policy was to send private owners to a re-education camp and grab their assets. In Germany a factory owner could make a profit if he played ball with the Nazi's. By 1933, factory owners didn't even exist in the USSR. There is a vast gulf between a mutually beneficial alliance versus obliteration and looting.

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