View Poll Results: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

Voters
61. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    32 52.46%
  • No

    25 40.98%
  • Don't Know

    4 6.56%
Page 11 of 25 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 249

Thread: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

  1. #101
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 11:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, this again illustrates the need for gun control revision. It makes no sense to me to allow a known unstable person to purchase gear that most police are not even issued.
    Here's a question:

    Was he "a known unstable person", or was he "that crazy guy"?

    The two are different.

    Many people, now, after the event, are saying "yeah, we knew he was nuts".

    But few people expect someone, even if nuts, to do this kind of thing.

    Was he crazy enough that people should have taken action to get him help, but didn't...

    Or was he just sane enough that people discounted the possibility that he would do this kind of thing?

    Are the two the same thing?

    In my mind, this is NOT a result of gun control laws being too lax, but rather a result of someone not getting the proper care for their mental health.

    If he had gotten the proper care, he either would be institutionalized and thus incapable of getting a weapon, or not in a state of mind to want one for this purpose in the first place.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #102
    Politically Correct

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 08:33 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,850
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you want to look into people's employment records and look for firings in order to get a gun? What else should be searched in order to exercise a right?
    No, not to look for firings, but perhaps to look for those red flags that might indicate danger. A firing because a person said "I'm going to come in and kill all of you" is such a red flag. This is probably not all that intrusive in this day and age, where people were able to dissect his whole life in a matter of mere minutes after the incident occurred. Here we had multiple situations where the police had to be called to the school for his disturbances and where people are claiming they thought him capable of carrying out a school shooting. I would think the police reports for such incidents should at least be available for review before giving someone a gun. Add that to two charges that were later dismissed. You consider these things irrelevant? Or simply not worth the time to look into? Or that the right to own a gun outweighs entertaining any kind of system that might involve even slightly more stringent review? I find that far more troublesome than any of your ominously phrased questions.
    Last edited by Cameron; 01-11-11 at 08:27 PM.

  3. #103
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I think it's bat**** insane in itself to sell a gun to someone with a history of mental illness, though I am not sure if the AZ shooter was ever professionally diagnosed. I don't understand the American love of guns, and never will... but I don't judge either. It is what it is. But I really think that things could be better as the rate of gun violence is . Not perfect, but better.
    It’s not like we want to sell insane people guns. I think that is, in all honesty, a bit of hyperbole. The point is, what do you want to do about it? What system to you propose? This guy, he was not diagnosed with any mental illness, so how do you force people to be evaluated? Is it with every gun purchase? Or do you have to get a license in order to get a gun, and that license requires mental evaluation every X years?

    We like to look at this case and say, “Oh, here is a case of an obviously insane man, yet somehow he got a hold of a gun and went on a rampage. Surely there is something we could have done to stop it.” Sounds reasonable. But there’s more than that one crazy guy in America. There are about 52 million of American households owning roughly 260 million guns. At the very least (assuming one person in the household owns all the guns), that’s 52 million psychiatric evaluations every X years. That’s a low ball number. How many state psychiatrists are there? Can private psychiatrists give clearance (if so…man there is some great chance for corruption)? How much time will this add to gun purchase? But above and beyond all this is a simple question; Is this proper to enforce over the practice of one’s rights? You’d have to do something similar to this to have had a chance (and this is assuming he wouldn’t have just went and purchased the gun illegally) of stopping this man, this time. He didn’t have a recorded history of mental problems. He failed a drug test, tested positive for pot. Yeah, smoking weed is illegal, but does it indicate mental problems? Or at least significant enough problems to question one’s ability to own a fire arm? He got, what was it, kicked out of school? People felt he was creepy and didn’t feel safe around him? Does anyone dismissed from school for being creepy get a psychiatric evaluation? How long till a group of kids just accuse someone they don’t like of being “creepy”?

    Being creepy isn’t a crime. The reason he went so long without some state forced evaluation was because until this last point, he had not done anything so wrong that it required state intervention and evaluation. He had no criminal record, or not one that I’ve heard of yet, he was not a felon, he had no record of mental disorders. He got a gun, but is there anything reasonable that could have been done to have stopped him at that point? No, the simple answer is no. We all look back on this event through the glasses of hindsight. We say now it’s obvious that he’s crazy. We say now there should have been something we could have done because it looks so crystal clear to us now. But then, it wasn’t; and the means necessary to make it so we catch these statistical outliers is incredibly invasive and harmful to the exercise of all our rights. We must understand the consequences of freedom.

    So we got this guy who got through the system, did something horrible, completely inhuman. Do we let the fear of that, of some other guy getting through the system, take over? What do we gain by giving into the fear? More government, more intrusions into our rights; that’s what we get. Is it worth it? If one right, why not another? Perhaps we should curtail freedom of speech. People incite to riot, look at all the “vengeful rhetoric” now. It’s dangerous, riots are destructive and deadly. And besides, people may say icky things you don’t like. And while we’re at it, look at religion. See how dangerous that is, the strict adherence to the ideology in the right environment can breed the right amount of hate for a forever war. And let’s not forget about cults, suicide and all that sort of stuff. Maybe psychiatric evaluation for all people wishing to be theists. Gotta make sure you know.

    The more we give into the fear, the more we lose. Time and time again, when we give in, we lose. Terrorism is only the latest in a long line of things to fear. We get the Patriot Act, the Real ID Act, TSA which is apparently cleared to grope and photograph you naked. Was it worth it? No, the simple answer is no. Terrorism is a low probability event, even lower than the lone gunman probability. And here’s a little secret, given enough time it will happen again. But if we let these probabilities rule us, we will find ourselves with nothing. Hopelessly locked away in our own homes afraid of the interaction of others because in that interaction there is danger. Fear will bind us. There will be another lone gunman, there will be another terrorist attack; these are just facts of living. But living afraid, that’s hardly life. That’s merely survival.

    I will take my chances, I will accept all the probabilities and dangers and duties so long as I can remain free. The alternative just isn’t all that great.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #104
    Tavern Bartender
    Pussy Grabbin' Beaver
    Middleground's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada's Capital
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,458
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Great post, Ikari.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  5. #105
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Here's a question:

    Was he "a known unstable person", or was he "that crazy guy"?

    The two are different.

    Many people, now, after the event, are saying "yeah, we knew he was nuts".

    But few people expect someone, even if nuts, to do this kind of thing.

    Was he crazy enough that people should have taken action to get him help, but didn't...

    Or was he just sane enough that people discounted the possibility that he would do this kind of thing?

    Are the two the same thing?

    In my mind, this is NOT a result of gun control laws being too lax, but rather a result of someone not getting the proper care for their mental health.

    If he had gotten the proper care, he either would be institutionalized and thus incapable of getting a weapon, or not in a state of mind to want one for this purpose in the first place.
    You are missing the main part of my point, which is that I don't think anyone (except with high security exceptions) should be allowed to purchase weaponry that is more deadly than standard issue for police officers.

    However, I will answer your question. My thoughts are that the same mechanism that kept him out of the military and college should have been applied to the process that allowed him to purchase a gun.

    I have a question for you. Do you think average citizens should be allowed to purchase tanks or hand grenades, and why?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #106
    User
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    02-26-11 @ 10:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Yes of course. Everyone should be able to buy a gun. I'll bet you thousands of other people in that state bought guns. Did they go out and attempt to assassinate a congressperson? No they didn't. This is his fault. Not palins, not the guy who sold him the gun, and not the FBI for not finding he was a wacko.

  7. #107
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 11:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are missing the main part of my point, which is that I don't think anyone (except with high security exceptions) should be allowed to purchase weaponry that is more deadly than standard issue for police officers.
    And I completely disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    However, I will answer your question. My thoughts are that the same mechanism that kept him out of the military and college should have been applied to the process that allowed him to purchase a gun.
    So people need to take drug tests to buy a gun, and people who scare people should not be allowed to purchase a gun?

    Caveat: I’m not clear on what precisely happened in this college situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I have a question for you. Do you think average citizens should be allowed to purchase tanks or hand grenades, and why?
    In answer to your first question: Yes.

    In answer to your second question: Think of all the uses tanks could be put too, after they are retired… And, fishing...
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #108
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,692

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I think it's bat**** insane in itself to sell a gun to someone with a history of mental illness, though I am not sure if the AZ shooter was ever professionally diagnosed. I don't understand the American love of guns, and never will... but I don't judge either. It is what it is. But I really think that things could be better as the rate of gun violence is . Not perfect, but better.

    So what does a person have to do to get a gun in the US? What are the requirements?
    You get that the person with a history of mental illness is SUPPOSED to be prohibited from purchasing a firearm. Right? The problem is that people tend to be a little protective of their medical history and rights. Hospitals dont maintain a database of people with mental illness.

    In a perfect world the federally licensed firearm dealer could run a background check that would expose felony acts, history of mental illness, and domestic violence incidents. Unfortunately that cant be done.

    And heres the REALLY sad part...NONE of this would stop 1 individual sufficiently motivated from following through with his act.

  9. #109
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,692

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    No, because he should have been diagnosed as mentally ill. His family should have acted long ago. Absent that, the school or the military or some other organization should have had the authority to have him evaluated, or perhaps those who wish to buy guns should have to demonstrate that they are sane.
    I got news for you...the guy WAS sane. He demonstrated the ability to plan, to conceal the act in advance, and to execute the plan. Mental stability doesnt manifest itself like a turkey timer that pops out when you reach a certain level of crazy. mentally unstable individuals can eb charming, creative, manipulative, convincing, etc. A lot of people are acting like this guy was walking around town with a "Hi! My name is Dave and Im an insane lunatic" badge on his lapel.

    And with what we have learned about this guy, does anyone REALLY think he wouldnt have followed through with his plan if he couldnt get a firearm? Corners...hmmm...Im betting a 2000 pound vehicle at 70 MPH would have taken out at LEAST 5 people. Probably more.

  10. #110
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    01-13-11 @ 10:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    685

    Re: Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Yes, he wasn't a felon, so I don't see why he shouldn't've been able to.
    I voted no, but I meant to vote yes.

Page 11 of 25 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •