View Poll Results: Is it an example of a second amendment solution?

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Thread: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

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    Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
    I voted no, and here's why.

    What the authors intended by the second amendment is entirely (literally 100%) irrelevant. The United States is a Republic under the rule of law, not the whim of founders. The judiciary is there to interpret the constitution for modern circumstances based on the original meanings of the words used at the time. It has nothing to do with John Adams being a hunter, or whatever else conjecture the conservatives or liberals come up with.

    How was it written? Like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution, 1791
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    What does this mean? Well, according to this a free state requires a well armed citizenry (as distinct from army or police force), and the right of the people to own firearms is protected. It says nothing about the right of people to murder government Congresspeople, and so that question goes to the legislature, who have laws against killing another unlawfully.

    My opinions on gun control are completely separate from this discussion.

    In my opinion the question of governmental overthrow is and should be a moral question, not a legal one.
    Last edited by SirPwn4lot; 01-10-11 at 07:03 AM.

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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    I didn't notice any well regulated militia in action, myself, and while I think Sharon Angle's statement was an encouragement to violence, as far as the actual second amendment is concerned, the resulting murders committed by any who might be spurred to action by such encouragement don't really fall under the second amendment. Assassination may be what she had in mind, but the second amendment does not give license to murder.
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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
    No.

    Rep. Giffords was hardly a bloody-handed tyrant. She was, in fact, pro-2nd Amendment.

    This was merely a deranged young man going off on a convenient target.

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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
    I think it is. Now, I'm not sure how Sharon Angle meant it, but here's what she said:

    Angle: I feel that the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for our citizenry. This not for someone who's in the military. This not for law enforcement. This is for us. And in fact when you read that Constitution and the founding fathers, they intended this to stop tyranny. This is for us when our government becomes tyrannical...


    Manders: If we needed it at any time in history, it might be right now.

    Angle: Well it's to defend ourselves. And you know, I'm hoping that we're not getting to Second Amendment remedies. I hope the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.
    Americans are fed up. People are sick and tired of having to work two jobs to make ends meet. They're sick and tired of being out of work...of special interests being protected while Average Joes struggles to make a good life for their families. They're frustrated and disgusted.

    Our politicians have made a real mess of things, and "the people" are beginning to understand that. I'm talking about all levels of government from local to county to state to federal. Our country is on the brink of demanding radical change. Second Amendment Solutions are wrong, but they may be the only voice we as a people have left.

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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No.

    Rep. Giffords was hardly a bloody-handed tyrant. She was, in fact, pro-2nd Amendment.

    This was merely a deranged young man going off on a convenient target.


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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
    Well, here are Angle's words regarding it:

    Angle: I feel that the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for our citizenry. This not for someone who's in the military. This not for law enforcement. This is for us. And in fact when you read that Constitution and the founding fathers, they intended this to stop tyranny. This is for us when our government becomes tyrannical...

    ...Well it's to defend ourselves. And you know, I'm hoping that we're not getting to Second Amendment remedies.
    I hope the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.
    Bolded the portions that mattered. So, does this fit with what she's talking about. Well, first off...we have zero indication so far that this had anything to do or was motivated in any way with "stopping tyranny". So right off, it would be extremely ignorant and premature to label this as being what Angle was saying that she "Hopes we're not getting to" since there's no indication at all as to what the man's motives was.

    Now, assuming that somehow it does come out that he THOUGHT that he was fighting back against tyranny, that in and of itself doesn't really fit the bill either. She talks in plurals regarding the citizenry, about "us", and about stopping tyranny. The death, no matter how tragic, of one congressman is hardly a means in any way shape or form of "stopping tyranny".

    It would seem then, given the actual comment she made and the context of what she was referring too, she is speaking to a much larger and collective attitude of large scale armed revolt against the government. Where large amounts of citizenry attempt to overthrow the government that has became tyrannical. This is a far cry from a lone gunmen, whose motives are completely unknown at this person, attempting to kill someone whose death would do little at all in regards to stopping or significantly changing the government from being a tyranny (if it was one).

    So no, I don't think this is along the lines of what she was talking about, nor do I think its realistic nor even intelligent to suggest she was promoting or suggesting that violence SHOULD happen when she clearly states she the hope that we don't have that sort of thing happen.

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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Ever since that phrase was used by Sharon Angle, I was curious exactly what it meant. Would you say the assassination of Representatives is an example of what a second amendment solution to political issues in this country would look like?
    Not really in this case. Here while it seems that the representative was targeted, the man also shot a lot of other people around them. In terms of violent overthrow of the government, which I assume is what you mean by second amendment solution, you don't necessarily want to instill fear in the populace itself. In many cases, you may be trying to get the populace to side with you. If you're going to have a "second amendment solution", it would have to be tactical and completely targeted. Meaning you aim for politicians and the authoritative branches of government (such as the ATF and what have you); but you minimize all other causality. The point is to instill fear in the government itself. The People can't feel incredibly threatened by your actions; the government is what needs to feel your wrath. It has to be properly placed and caution made to ensure that only the intended targets are taken out.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Angle was just throwing a bone to macho idiots who watched Red Dawn one too many times. Its the political equivalent of wannabe gangster suburban teens talking trash. There may yet come a time when life gets so bad that armed revolt may be needed, but today we are not even close. Half of America doesn't even care enough about politics to vote.

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    Re: Would the assassination of Rep. Giffords count as a Second Amendment Solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not really in this case. Here while it seems that the representative was targeted, the man also shot a lot of other people around them. In terms of violent overthrow of the government, which I assume is what you mean by second amendment solution, you don't necessarily want to instill fear in the populace itself. In many cases, you may be trying to get the populace to side with you. If you're going to have a "second amendment solution", it would have to be tactical and completely targeted. Meaning you aim for politicians and the authoritative branches of government (such as the ATF and what have you); but you minimize all other causality. The point is to instill fear in the government itself. The People can't feel incredibly threatened by your actions; the government is what needs to feel your wrath. It has to be properly placed and caution made to ensure that only the intended targets are taken out.
    I guess the reason I am asking you Ikari is that you, from what I can tell, seem to be the one who most talks about the revolution solution. What in your mind is the typical situation that would cause a second amendment solution to be legitimate?

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