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Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?


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Funny, a small percentage of American Muslims actually commit horrible violent attrocities in the name of their religion. Additionally, a small percentage of American Christians actually commit horrible violent attrocities in the name of their religion.

However strangely, either religion in 3rd world countries or areas where the society is extremely backwards when compared to modern western civilization, we see far more violence cropping up from the religions. Very similar to 500 or 900 years ago when the society of the western world was different then it is today with regards to violence as an answer.

Obviously then the answer is the religion by itself is at fault, and not the notion of combining religion with an environment where people can use it to push for violent ends.
 
Don't really know about Hinduism or Buddhism. Doesn't Buddhism hardly provide scripture at all, but is based much more on active practize, like meditation, matras and other rituals Christians might call "mystic"?

Buddhism and Hinduism both have extensive scripture, actually. In Buddhism the scripture is called sutras or suttas depending on if they are written is Sanskrit or Pali respectively, and they read very much like the equivalent of the Bible, essentially dialogues between the Buddha and his disciples. Similarly, Hinduism has the Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita.
 
And, there's more....

Christian extremism in Africa is a very serious and growing problem. Uganda's laws, encouraged by American fundamentalists, that would make homosexuality punishable by death, are the tip of the iceberg.

AFP: Kenya mob burns 15 women to death over witchcraft

In Africa, at least, there is very little difference between the extremist Islamic and the extremist Christian.

Where in this story does it say these are christians?

It mentions a pastor, but his family was victimized by the violence, not perpetrating it. The article even points out that the mobs were followers of "witch-doctors" who kill albinos for good luck. Belief in "witchcraft" or evil spirits and such is a remnant that survives from much older African religions/traditions, and is also common in other cultures, from new guinea to the philippines.
 
What is it that C. S. Lewis calls this? Chronological chauvinism, I think? ;)

No, it isn't chauvenism, but merely seeking the avoidance of a form of sophistry predicated upon the building of fallacious moral equivalencies.

When people indulge in their tu toque arguments comparing Christianity to Islam in order to defend the latter, they invariably utilize any of a number of fallacies. They either compare acts that are not equal in terms of moral repugnance, or they compare actions that are not equally prevalent , or they compare acts that do not arise within the same time frame.

If you wish to compare Christianity to Islam within the framework of what their adherents do in the name of their religion, you need to establish what they do, how many do it, what they believe, how many believe it, the connection between the beliefs and the actions and the time they did it.

We are all living in the same world. Using the cop out that some people did something centuries ago in order to defend actions in the here and now is just that -- a cop out.
 
:2razz:

*parties big time*

I would have never imagined we'd come so far that anybody would justify and play apologist for the Crusades, Inquisition and Manifest Destiny. Wow ... just wow.

:shock:

firstly, i wouldn't say i am an apologist for the Inquisition; I simply point out the historical accuracy that it wasn't the bloodbath that people imagine it as. Sure there were bloody individual scenes, but I wouldn't put it as significantly worse than (say) lynching in America in the late 19th - early 20th century or current anti-Christian violence in Egypt.

as far as the Crusades; yeah; Muslim forces had spent the past couple of centuries conquering Christian territory; and the Christians' decided to go win some of it back. Charles Martel didn't have to fight at Poitiers because the Islamic raiding force had gotten lost on the Hajj; they (having taken Spain) were thinking of invading France. Christian forces had to invade the Holy Land because it had been conquered from the Christian Byzantine empire. I'm not going to say I'm an apologist for them, or certainly for the bloodbaths that were involved in some of the individual campaigns; but to pull them out and pretend like they were some kind of Especially Evil Event In The History Of Warfare? :roll: please.

thirdly, i don't see how pointing out that Manifest Destiny was an Americanist ideal more than a Christian one in any way turns one into an apologist for it. that's like saying that pointing out that a Ford F-150 is a six-cylinder makes you pro-4-cylinder.
 
as far as the Crusades; yeah; Muslim forces had spent the past couple of centuries conquering Christian territory; and the Christians' decided to go win some of it back. Charles Martel didn't have to fight at Poitiers because the Islamic raiding force had gotten lost on the Hajj; they (having taken Spain) were thinking of invading France. Christian forces had to invade the Holy Land because it had been conquered from the Christian Byzantine empire.

Correction: The Roman Catholics in the west didn't care a whit for the Byzantine Christians; the crusaders regularly sacked Byzantine cities on the way to the holy land. Any assistance given by the Latins to the Greeks was just a flimsy pretext for a war of conquest.
 
Correction: The Roman Catholics in the west didn't care a whit for the Byzantine Christians; the crusaders regularly sacked Byzantine cities on the way to the holy land. Any assistance given by the Latins to the Greeks was just a flimsy pretext for a war of conquest.

...and what was the muslim pretext for the initial war of conquest against the byzantines?

That the latin Christians had no special love for the Byzantines is beside the point anyway -- they did care that Jerusalem had been taken by muslims; it had been a major pilgrimage site for christians (both latin and eastern orthodox) for many centuries. Oh, and the latin christians also attacked other latin christian cities en route to the holy land (ie. Zemun, Hungary), such tactics were common in warfare during the period -- big armies had to eat... they weren't religiously motivated.
 
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Correction: The Roman Catholics in the west didn't care a whit for the Byzantine Christians; the crusaders regularly sacked Byzantine cities on the way to the holy land. Any assistance given by the Latins to the Greeks was just a flimsy pretext for a war of conquest.

i've read a couple of accounts of those sackings; from what i've seen (which admittedly isn't authoritative) they seemed spawned by stupidity rather than anti-Byzantine sentiment ("they're wearing rags on their heads! they must be mohammeden!")
 
...and what was the muslim pretext for the initial war of conquest against the byzantines?

The Muslim conquest of the Holy Land had occurred over than 400 years before the first crusade. It was in no way a provocation to the Latin powers.

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That the latin Christians had no special love for the Byzantines is beside the point anyway -- they did care that Jerusalem had been taken by muslims;

Yes, Jerusalem, a city no Latin had any rightful claim to, had been taken four hundred years ago. Think that one over.


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it had been a major pilgrimage site for christians (both latin and eastern orthodox) for many centuries.

It is also a major pilgrimage site for many Muslims, so that's a wash.

. Oh, and the latin christians also attacked other latin christian cities en route to the holy land (ie. Zemun, Hungary), such tactics were common in warfare during the period -- big armies had to eat... they weren't religiously motivated.

So, more proof the Crusaders were assholes. But to draw from this that the Crusades "weren't religiously motivated" is absurd.
 
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To find adequate atrocities that can be laid at Christendom's feet, the critics have to go back 500-900 years.

Not even hardly. The bloodiest war in the history of man (WWII) was caused by someone who believed he was doing God's work, and he acquired help from a nation of Christians to do it.

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler

To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk.

- Adolf Hitler

May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.

- Adolf Hitler

We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.

- Adolf Hitler

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.

- Adolf Hitler

I am a Christian. And while I don't believe that Hitler was the same kind of a Christian that I am, or that most people are, or ever have been, similarly, Islamists are not the same kind of Muslims that most are. It's disappointing that the actions of extremist nutjobs get pinned on the whole religion. So here I am doing it to Christianity, in order to make a point about those that so ignorantly do it to Islam.
 
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So here I am doing it to Christianity, in order to make a point about those that so ignorantly do it to Islam.

Well said! It's interesting how these people will hate on Islam all day long for the acts of a small minority of violent criminals, but when examples of Christians behaving violently in the name of God get brought up, these same people bend over backwards to rationalize it and excuse it. It's an amazing disconnect.
 
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The Muslim conquest of the Holy Land had occurred over than 400 years before the first crusade. It was in no way a provocation to the Latin powers.

Yes, Jerusalem, a city no Latin had any rightful claim to, had been taken four hundred years ago. Think that one over.

It is also a major pilgrimage site for many Muslims, so that's a wash.

I guess it doesn't dawn on you to attampt to look at the issue from their perspective. Think that one over. Notice I wrote "they did care that Jerusalem had been taken by muslims." The direct provocation was stirred up by accounts of muslim attacks on christian pilgrims, they decided then that the city needed to be back in christian hands.

So, more proof the Crusaders were assholes. But to draw from this that the Crusades "weren't religiously motivated" is absurd.

Your claim that I said the Crusades "weren't religiously motivated" is absurd. I said the sack of the byzantine cities wasn't religiously motivated.
 
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I guess it doesn't dawn on you to attampt to look at the issue from their perspective. Think that one over. Notice I wrote "they did care that Jerusalem had been taken by muslims." The direct provocation was stirred up by accounts of muslim attacks on christian pilgrims, they decided then that the city needed to be back in christian hands.

Yeah, a few Muslim bandits really justified the Crusades :roll: The fact is, there had been so serious Muslim threat to Western Europe since the Battle of Tours in 732.

Why, oh why, would anyone be an apologist for the Crusades? You realize that's what you're doing, right? Think that over.

The Crusades were a series of wars of aggression that were directly motivated by the Christian religion. You want to defend that?
 
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Yeah, a few Muslim bandits really justified the Crusades :roll:

Why, oh why, would anyone be an apologist for the Crusades? You realize that's what you're doing, right? Think that over.

If you're unwilling to learn the actual history that's not my problem. Gaff it off and cry that I'm an apologist, I could care less. Also, read more carefully, this is the second time (in only 2 posts) you've completely misunderstood what I wrote.
 
However strangely, either religion in 3rd world countries or areas where the society is extremely backwards when compared to modern western civilization, we see far more violence cropping up from the religions. Very similar to 500 or 900 years ago when the society of the western world was different then it is today with regards to violence as an answer.

I would tend to say that any religion can be misused, and the way that the religion is practiced is more a reflection of the people involved than the religion itself. I would say that this is the case regarding ANY religion, not just Christianity or Islam.

I personally find the Christianists more of an annoyance, because I am directly impacted by their influence over policy and politics in the Soouth. However, I would say that my opinion might be very different if I lived in Dearborne, Michigan.
 
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Where in this story does it say these are christians?

It mentions a pastor, but his family was victimized by the violence, not perpetrating it. The article even points out that the mobs were followers of "witch-doctors" who kill albinos for good luck. Belief in "witchcraft" or evil spirits and such is a remnant that survives from much older African religions/traditions, and is also common in other cultures, from new guinea to the philippines.

First of al, belief in witchcraft has a Christian tradition going back to the very beginning of the faith, and a strong current of it still persists. Ever heard of the Salem witch trials? And what about that witch-hunting African pastor that Sarah Palin was paling around with?

Besides that, you are being entirely disingenuous if you are trying to assert that the homophobic violence in Uganda is the result of African shamanistic religions. Uganda is something like 90% Christian, and if you take a minute to research the politics of the situation you will see that it is right-wing mainstream Protestants that are behind the anti-gay movement.
 
If you're unwilling to learn the actual history that's not my problem. Gaff it off and cry that I'm an apologist, I could care less. Also, read more carefully, this is the second time (in only 2 posts) you've completely misunderstood what I wrote.

I've already shared the actual history of the Crusades with you, and you choose to sweep it under the rug and claim that the Crusades were "not religiously motivated" despite all the evidence being to the contrary. Sorry, but you have been soundly defeated in this argument. Have a good one.
 
I've already shared the actual history of the Crusades with you, and you choose to sweep it under the rug and claim that the Crusades were "not religiously motivated" despite all the evidence being to the contrary. Sorry, but you have been soundly defeated in this argument. Have a good one.


The fact is, there had been so serious Muslim threat to Western Europe since the Battle of Tours in 732.

Sack of Rome (846) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They also sacked Pisa in 1004. btw

:lamo:lamo:lamo

And again, why do you always insist on misrepresenting what I have actually said? Perhaps you're real adept and defeating imaginary arguments you make up and attribute to other people -- but I wouldn't pat myself on the back for that if I were you.
 
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Where in this story does it say these are christians?

It mentions a pastor, but his family was victimized by the violence, not perpetrating it. The article even points out that the mobs were followers of "witch-doctors" who kill albinos for good luck. Belief in "witchcraft" or evil spirits and such is a remnant that survives from much older African religions/traditions, and is also common in other cultures, from new guinea to the philippines.

If you were familiar with the subject, you'd realize that there is a strong connection between Christianity and witch-hunting in Africa at present.

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt | World news | The Observer

Behind the smartly painted doors pastors make a living by 'deliverances' - exorcisms - for people beset by witchcraft, something seen to cause anything from divorce, disease, accidents or job losses. With so many churches it's a competitive market, but by local standards a lucrative one.

But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.

Some parents scrape together sums needed to pay for a deliverance - sometimes as much as three or four months' salary for the average working man - although the pastor will explain that the witch might return and a second deliverance will be needed. Even if the parent wants to keep the child, their neighbours may attack it in the street.

This is not just a few cases. This is becoming commonplace. In Esit Eket, up a nameless, puddled-and-potholed path is a concrete shack stuffed to its fetid rafters with roughly made bunk beds. Here, three to a bed like battery chickens, sleep victims of the besuited Christian pastors and their hours-long, late-night services. Ostracised and abandoned, these are the children a whole community believes fervently are witches.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/s...on-Saving-Africa-s-Witch-Children-HBO2-May-26

And, this isn't limited to Africa:

Woman suspected of witchcraft burned alive - CNN.com (Papua New Guinea is 96% Christian)

As unity unravels, a battle for Haitian souls is stirring - Haiti: The Earthquake Aftermath - BradentonHerald.com - Haiti

The tensions have only mounted as Evangelical and other religious groups from the United States fly en masse to a ravaged Haiti to feed and preach the Gospel.

Last month, Mario Joseph, a Haitian human rights lawyer, went before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights seeking an investigation of attacks against Vodouists after several were stoned by Evangelical pastors in the Cité Soleil slum.

``In other zones of the country,'' he told the commission, ``particularly in the commune of Verrettes in the Artibonite, literal witch hunts have been launched against priests and practitioners of this religion.''

The harm being done by Christian extremists is every bit as serious as the harm being done by Islamic extremists. Those who don't realize this probably aren't paying attention.

If you're unwilling to learn the actual history that's not my problem.

Hello, Pot. Meet Kettle.
 
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