View Poll Results: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

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Thread: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

  1. #51
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Will Freedom Come for Sudans' Slaves?

    On Jan. 9, the people of South Sudan began their week-long referendum to decide whether to separate from the Arab-Muslim North and form an independent country. But Achol Yum Deng didn't vote. Though she has more reasons to seek separation from the North than most of her countrymen, she couldn't register: Since 1998, Achol was a slave serving her master in the North and was only liberated just before the voting began.

    The war booty of a man named Adhaly Osman, Achol was threatened with death, gang-raped, genitally mutilated, forced to convert to Islam, renamed "Mariam," and racially and religiously insulted. She lost the sight in one eye when her master thrashed her face with a camel whip for failing to perform Islamic rituals correctly. This mother of four saw two of her children beaten to death for minor misdemeanors. She also lost the use of one arm when her master took a machete to it in response to her failure to grind grain properly.

    Achol is one of 397 slaves whose liberation was facilitated and documented by Christian Solidarity International and the American Anti-Slavery Group in the state of Northern Bahr el Ghazal as voting commenced.

    The British suppressed black slavery in Sudan in the first half of the 20th century. But the practice was rekindled in the 1980s as part of the surge in Islamism in the region. In 1983, when Khartoum's radical leaders declared strict enforcement of Shariah law throughout the country, the Christian and tribalist South resisted. Shariah-sanctioned slave raids were used as a weapon to break Southern resistance...

    There is a racist aspect to this slavery. Blacks were cursed as bd (black slave) and kuffar (infidel). Many were forcibly converted to Islam. The North-South war, lasting 23 years, was ultimately declared a "jihad" by Sudan's Islamist President Omar al-Bashir...

    Cases like Achol's have been known to the elites in the international community from the early days of Khartoum's war against the South. But the U.N. and Western governments have been slow to tackle this internationally recognized crime against humanity. It was not until 1999, 16 years into the war, that Unicef, the world's largest child welfare organization, finally acknowledged the reality of slavery in Sudan.

    But threats made by the government of Sudan against U.N. operations forced Unicef to backtrack. Meanwhile, in 1999, the Arab League declared that slavery was nonexistent in Sudan and that to say otherwise was an insult to Arabs and Muslims. For fear of offending Islam, many Western NGOs have turned a blind eye...
    so.... there you have it. one of the religions under discussion it seems is currently in the business of taking people slaves and force-converting them, while the other is currently in the business of helping to set them free...

    darn those pushy Christians, they probably prayed for those people when they liberated, them, too...

  2. #52
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It's pretty obvious that Islamic extremists will resort to killing far more that Christian extremists...
    Thank you.


    Christian "extremists" hand out Bible tracts to people, knock on your door and ask if you'd like to come to their church, and maybe oppose gay marriage.

    Muslim extremists cut the heads off apostates and rape victims who dared defend themselves, along with journalists like Daniel Pearl, and blow up busses full of Israeli schoolchildren with brainwashed 15yo suicide bombers.

    Apples and oranges...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  3. #53
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Thank you.

    Christian "extremists" hand out Bible tracts to people, knock on your door and ask if you'd like to come to their church, and maybe oppose gay marriage.

    Muslim extremists cut the heads off apostates and rape victims who dared defend themselves, along with journalists like Daniel Pearl, and blow up busses full of Israeli schoolchildren with brainwashed 15yo suicide bombers.

    Apples and oranges...
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...post1058816579
    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Except One religion does indeed have an Inordinate problem with violence.
    How many people have died in the name of Chistianity in the last year? 20 years?
    People die EVERY single day at the hands of Radical Muslims/in the Name of Islam.
    And we have the daily disingenuous and PC attempt at moral equivalence here just because someone can point to a few abortion clinic bombings a decade.

    A Fundamentalist Christian is a missionary.. a Fundamentalist Muslim kills him.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-17-11 at 08:03 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  4. #54
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Islamic Nations Slaughter, Enslave Christians
    December 16, 2001
    Tom Barrett
    http://www.conservativetruth.org/arc...12-16-01.shtml

    THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is Systematic government persecution of Christians. [..] This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.

    I spent hours going through the well-documented profiles of the 46 countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, 6 did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the 39 with a strong Muslim majority, only 7 could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities. If the United States were to treat its roughly 2 million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?
    [......]
    Last edited by mbig; 01-17-11 at 08:30 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  5. #55
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    they killed themselves. and they did it in relatively small numbers. care to talk about the body count that Islamist fundamentalism has racked up in the last 10 years alone?



    yes, the governments of the West would never do such a thing as bow down before extremists, noooooo.....

    hey, Michael Savage, is he allowed in Britain these days?

    that Geert Wilders guy, he been in the courtroom for anything in particular recently?
    I'm absolutely not refuting or challenging the fact that modern Islam is much more violent than modern Christianity -- don't get me wrong.

    But I thought we were having a debate about which tries to impose itself more on our governments, and there, I'd say they've both been known to take a heavy hand in trying to get their way in government venues.

    Anyway, about Michael Savage -- he's not allowed into the UK, not because he doesn't like Muslims, but because he regularly uses violent anti-Muslim rhetoric, and is deemed a threat to security by spewing all that vitriole. If he were to be making violent anti-Jewish rhetoric, or anti-British rhetoric, he would still not be allowed into the UK. This isn't about Muslims, this is about him being a fear- and hate-monger.

  6. #56
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    I'm not sure the religion of the respective people committing acts of violence and oppression is really an important factor, or even the most important factor, even when these acts are committed in the name of that religion. Maybe demographic and social factors have much more impact, and the respective religion serves as catalyst only?

    Now I may be wrong, and rely too much on the idea that reality shapes consciousness more than vice versa, in this case, but there are historical and sociological works that suggest such factors are usually related to trouble.

    For example, after Spain's "Reconquista" (the fight to topple Muslim rule in the 15th century), the country started conquering America, violently christianizing and enslaving native American peoples. Both, Reconquista and Conquest, could only happen -- or more or less had to happen -- because at that time, demographics in Spain were of a kind that provided a large excess of young males ready to fight, which, otherwise, would have had a very hard time to find a basis for life if the monarchy had not sent them to pillage. The rulers had a large resource of motivated potential soldiers and colonizers as carrot, and the problems that would have arised had these many young males not be provided with a purpose, as a stick. It was a no-brainer they chose to expand. It was not Christianity that caused them to do it. The prevalence of Christianity just resulted in Spain chosing it as justification, motivator and means to foster identity.

    Today, many Muslim countries face a critical demographic situation. Their economic development is poor, some are just beginning to emerge economically, improvements in medicine and sanitary measures have caused a huge spike in the birthrate in the last generation. Traditional family and social structures and attitudes are still dominant, but already very much challenged by new technology and globalization, and by a vast increase of general education in the last generation.

    So we have many more young people in Muslim countries than old, many of them much better educated than their parents and grandparents, a transformation process that changes social structures that had been intact for hundreds of years and an according confusion, especially among older people who can't keep up to date, are scared, and resort to old traditions and religion even stronger. Also, there is a huge excess of young males with few economic prospects.

    When Europe was in a similar situation of economic, technological and demographic transformation in the late 19th and early 20th century, we saw a rise of general militarism and an expansionist sense of superiority and mission, that first resulted in the colonization of Africa and much of Asia, then in the rise of totalitarian ideologies like communism and fascism, and two World Wars.

    At the turning point from traditional social structure to modern way of life, many people, especially young males who had no prospects due to unfinished economic development, fled into the arms of ideologies that combined old tradition with expansionist and revolutionary violence, a reactionary result of confusion -- in case of Germans, it was Nazism (a perfect example for a new, reactionary ideology that combined "modern" revolutionary thought with tradition!), in case of many Muslims today, it's radical Islamism (which, as many experts claim, is distinctively different from orthodox and classic Islam, insofar it is more expansionist and violent, and combines modern ideas with tradition -- and thus is just as reactionary as Nazi ideology was).

    Only when the economic and technological transformation had reached a certain point, so that general wealth had reached even the lower classes, reformed social structures caused the birthrate to go down again, and many "excess" young males had been killed as cannon fodder, Europe found peace and rolled back its expansionism and sense of mission.

    So does it really matter that much which religion someone believes in, to determine his people's violence or thirst for expansionism? I'd guess that when you have a good job, a nice house and you are generally satisfied, you won't be going to commit suicide bombings, no matter how much your belief glorifies that. And when you're poor, young, confused because new ideas and technologies transform the world so much you don't understand it anymore, and because your struggling economy can offer you no prospects, it's very likely you'll look for scapegoats, trust hate preachers who promise a shining future or resort to violence -- even if you have no religion, or if your religion does not really condone that.

    That's just the general idea. It doesn't mean there are no exceptions.
    Last edited by German guy; 01-17-11 at 09:53 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  7. #57
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    I'm absolutely not refuting or challenging the fact that modern Islam is much more violent than modern Christianity -- don't get me wrong.

    But I thought we were having a debate about which tries to impose itself more on our governments, and there, I'd say they've both been known to take a heavy hand in trying to get their way in government venues....
    There is tension in many Muslim countries about how much Koran should be in govt. Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.

    Of course, there are already two 100% Muslim theocracies - Saudi/Iran - vs No Christian ones.

    And Most other Muslim countries have at least partial/some elements of Sharia/Holy-Book law - vs ..... No Christian ones.

    And the only place I can see any pressure is here, and it has by-and-large failed even with 'friendly' presidents like Bush in achieving anything significant-- except perhaps making the Supreme Court more 'conservative' - which may affect abortion rights.
    Also incredibly disappointing/Backwards is the push, for teaching Creationism (aka ID) with, or instead of Evolution.
    (too many Face palms posted here already)

    But in NO Western country is there pressure for Biblical Justice ala Islam re Adultery, Stoning, Amputation, etc, etc.

    Witness recent events in Pakistan after the Murder of a Governor there:
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ened-security/
    "....More than 500 clerics and scholars from the group Jamat Ahle Sunnat said no one should pray or express regret for the killing of the governor. The group representing Pakistan's majority Barelvi sect, which follows a brand of Islam considered moderate, also issued a Veiled Threat to other opponents of the blasphemy laws.

    "The supporter is as equally guilty as one who committed blasphemy," the group Warned in a statement, adding that politicians, the media and others should learn "a lesson from the Exemplary death."

    Jamat leader Maulana Shah Turabul Haq Qadri paid "glorious tribute to the murderer … for his courage, bravery and religious honor and integrity."..."
    Yes, the "Majority","considered moderates" support Blasphemy laws and condone Murder in their name. And issued "veiled threats" of the same.

    Could this happen in a Christian country?
    Would these religous fanatics be considered 'moderates' in any other religion?
    Last edited by mbig; 01-17-11 at 10:58 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  8. #58
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    "....Today, many Muslim countries face a critical demographic situation. Their economic development is poor, some are just beginning to emerge economically, improvements in medicine and sanitary measures have caused a huge spike in the birthrate in the last generation. Traditional family and social structures and attitudes are still dominant, but already very much challenged by new technology and globalization, and by a vast increase of general education in the last generation.

    So we have many more young people in Muslim countries than old, many of them much better educated than their parents and grandparents, a transformation process that changes social structures that had been intact for hundreds of years and an according confusion, especially among older people who can't keep up to date, are scared, and resort to old traditions and religion even stronger. Also, there is a huge excess of young males with few economic prospects.

    When Europe was in a similar situation of economic, technological and demographic transformation in the late 19th and early 20th century, we saw a rise of general militarism and an expansionist sense of superiority and mission, that first resulted in the colonization of Africa and much of Asia, then in the rise of totalitarian ideologies like communism and fascism, and two World Wars.
    This is an inapt comparison.
    Muslim countries (partially cultural/partially Scriptural) do find themselve in a horrendous demographic situation; an Untenable one.
    Try and talk to them about it.
    However, this resembles NOT Europe c 1900/Industrial Revolution when there were jobs for the newly created populace.

    Quote Originally Posted by German Guy
    At the turning point from traditional social structure to modern way of life, many people, especially young males who had no prospects due to unfinished economic development, fled into the arms of ideologies that combined old tradition with expansionist and revolutionary violence, a reactionary result of confusion -- in case of Germans, it was Nazism (a perfect example for a new, reactionary ideology that combined "modern" revolutionary thought with tradition!), in case of many Muslims today, it's radical Islamism (which, as many experts claim, is distinctively different from orthodox and classic Islam, insofar it is more expansionist and violent, and combines modern ideas with tradition -- and thus is just as reactionary as Nazi ideology was).
    Naziism had other primary cause than too many bodies.

    Quote Originally Posted by German Guy
    So does it really matter that much which religion someone believes in, to determine his people's violence or thirst for expansionism?
    YES.
    Islam IS Scripturally an expansionist religion. Be it peaceful or by Jihad.
    and it's goal is a worldwide Islamic state.
    So it not only matters, it's their doctrine/Credo.
    Not so of the others.. many of whom (ie, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews) don't even care to save anyone else, much less conquer them. (!)


    Quote Originally Posted by German Guy
    I'd guess that when you have a good job, a nice house and you are generally satisfied, you won't be going to commit suicide bombings, no matter how much your belief glorifies that. ...
    I don't think so.
    People like the 9/11 bombers had good prospects and were not desperate economically or otherwise.
    Profiling has shown that to be the generally the case.. not your (pardon me) .. excuse.

    Ibn Warraq http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthol...nWarraqWTC.htm
    Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence,” apologists of Islam argue.

    There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and the Hadith – Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so-called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism. A Palestinian involved in the WTC bombings would be seen as a martyr to the Palestinian cause, but even more as a martyr to Islam.

    “Ah, but Islamic fundamentalism is like any other kind of fundamentalism, one must not demonise it. It is the result of political, social grievances. It must be explained in terms of economics and not religion,” continue the apologists of Islam.

    There are enormous differences between Islamic fundamentalism and any other kind of modern fundamentalism. It is true that Hindu, Jewish, and Christian fundamentalists have been responsible for acts of violence, but these have been confined to particular countries and regions. Islamic fundamentalism has global aspirations: the submission of the entire world to the all-embracing Shari’a, Islamic Law, a fascist system of dictates designed to control every single act of all individuals. Nor do Hindus or Jews seek to convert the world to their religion. Christians do indulge in proselytism but no longer use acts of violence or international terrorism to achieve their aims.

    Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world.

    Islamic fundamentalists recruit among Muslim populations, they appeal to Islamic religious symbols, and they motivate their recruits with Islamic doctrine derived from the Qur’an. Economic poverty alone cannot explain the phenomenon of Islamism. Poverty in Brazil or Mexico has not resulted in Christian fundamentalist acts of international terror. Islamists are against what they see as western materialism itself. Their choice is clear: Islam or jahiliyya. The latter term is redefined to mean modern-style jahiliyya of modern, democratic, industrialised societies of Europe and America, where man is under the dominion of man rather than Allah. They totally reject the values of the West, which they feel are poisoning Islamic culture. So, it is not just a question of economics, but of an entirely different worldview, which they wish to impose on the whole world. Sayyid Qutb, the very influential Egyptian Muslim thinker, said that “dominion should be reverted to Allah alone, namely to Islam, that holistic system He conferred upon men. An all-out offensive, a jihad, should be waged against modernity so that this moral rearmament could take place. The ultimate objective is to re-establish the Kingdom of Allah upon earth...”
    But I DO agree on demography in Good degree.. in fact, I'd say I'm the number 1 proponent here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...in-kramer.html
    (containing this vid. You'll like it.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJXF...layer_embedded

    and
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...st-israel.html
    Last edited by mbig; 01-17-11 at 11:30 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  9. #59
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This is an inapt comparison.
    Muslim countries (partially cultural/partially Scriptural) do find themselve in a horrendous demographic situation; an Untenable one.
    Try and talk to them about it.
    However, this resembles NOT Europe c 1900/Industrial Revolution when there were jobs for the newly created populace.
    Of course it's not an identical situation. No two situations in different countries in history are identical. But there are some similarities on some fields.

    Naziism had other primary cause than demograhics.
    It had also other causes. It probably also had other primary causes. But demographics played a role, especially economic situation did definitely play a role, and the transformation of social structures played a role too.

    Trivial example: Without enough young men to serve as potential soldiers, war would have been much less likely.

    YES.
    Islam IS Scripturally an expansionist religion. Be it peaceful or by Jihad.
    and it's goal is a worldwide Islamic state.
    So it not only matters, it's their doctrine/Credo.
    Not so of the others.. many of whom (ie, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews) don't even care to save anyone else, much less conquer them. (!)
    I'd agree that Islam is a religion that can much more easily be used to justify violence and expansionism than other religions. But there are many Muslims who pracitize Islam without doing that. If a majority of them chose to do that or not, depends on other factors than the mere word of Quran and Hadith.

    That's mainly wrong.
    People like the 9/11 bombers had good prospects and were not desperate economically or otherwise.
    Profiling has shown that to be the generally the case.. not your (pardon me) .. excuse.
    That's true. But you have to look at the context. These terrorists were embedded in various social, economic and ideological structures that furthered extremist opinions.

    Also, you will always find ****ed up lunatics ready to blow themselves up or to run amok, no matter how well their situation is. The point is, when an entire country provides prospects and a better economic situation, such attitudes are more likely to be limited to a few extremists, rather than being a mass movement supported by a majority.

    I'll agree with you absolutely that demographics and material factors are not the only factors that have to be considered. But I am absolutely convinced that reducing this problem to a mono-causal theory that exclusively blames old scriptures and ignores all other factors is not just painfully simplistic, but necessarily incapable of sufficiently explaining this problem.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  10. #60
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I'd agree that Islam is a religion that can much more easily be used to justify violence and expansionism than other religions.
    I dunno about this. Christianity has been used to justify a lot of violence over the years. Just look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, etc.

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