View Poll Results: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

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  • Christianity

    22 26.19%
  • Islam

    62 73.81%
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Thread: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

  1. #181
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadius View Post
    You own the original documents?
    Nope just copies of the original which are demonstrated to be TRUE by the Scientific Process of Comparative Analysis. When you have over 5000 copies found in many different locations and they all present the same truth, Science tells us that they all were copied from an original single source. But, of course YOU are much smarter than those who collected these manuscripts and placed them into a Canon, just decades after the fact....now 2000 years later, your intellect simply overwhelms, as clearly you know more than these people as per the originality of those manuscripts which were confirmed by the historical documentation of men such Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen..etc.
    Last edited by Walter; 02-18-11 at 11:46 PM.

  2. #182
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    I just did. There was no protestant reformation until the 16th century, the crusades occurred under Catholic direction from the Vatican in 11,12, and 13th Century. You do the math. The Printing Press was invented in the 15th Century by "Gutenberg", and the Holy Scriptures were translated into languages other than LATIN and into the King James English in 1604.
    Gutenberg was a Catholic, was he not? The Bible WAS translated into languages OTHER than Latin by CATHOLICS prior to the King James Version.

    But, simply because the general public did not have access to the truth found in the Holy Bible does not preclude that record from existing from the 1st century to date. Its simple, The Catholics use Dogma and Tradition to propagate Christianity while the Scriptures teach that it is the Word of God that builds faith, not the Church Hierarchy.
    Catholic teaching is that there are three sources of doctrine: Scripture, tradition, and the holy spirit. To think that anyone would like to LIMIT God to words written in a finite book is NOT Scriptural and signifciantly limits the power and love of God

    Its a most easy thing to demonstrate through the historical record when certain Catholic Traditions began, with the major change being in 325 when the CHURCH and STATE were incorporated together. But the Scriptures were first perverted long before then, as per the warning contained in the scriptures themselves that such would happen (1 Tim. 4:1-3)
    Yet, at the end of the fifth century, the pope stated that the Church and the State were SEPARATE. The Roman Empire was NOT the first state where Christianity became the official religion, BTW.

    The blessing of WATER before use did not begin until the 2nd century. The Separation of the clergy from the laity (members)..early 2nd century. This in spite of the Scriptural Fact that the Church that the Christ built did not have any separation as each member could approach the throne of God in prayers as each person was considered a Priest with the Christ being the High Priest that we confess our sins to as he stands as advocate between God and our sins (1 Peter 2:9-10).
    You obviously don't understand the Church. The Scriptures also say that Peter would be the rock on which His church would be built. Peter is regarded as the first Bishop of Rome and subsequent Bishops of Rome were his successors. Jesus also said that what was bound on earth would also be bound in Heaven and what was loosed on earth would also be similarly loosed in Heaven.

    Special days being set aside for fasting which eventually began the practice of LENT -- 140 AD. Yet the actual Record in Scriptures tell us not to respect certain religious holidays or sabbath as that was the practice under the Old Law not the New (Col. 2:14-17). The wearing of Special Clothes by the Clergy did not begin until the 2nd Century, yet Christ Chastised the Jewish Clergy for doing the same thing, placing themselves above the people they served by marking their SPECIAL Identity with SPECIAL CLOTHES.
    That was only when Lent was unified within the Church. What many anti-Catholics ignore is that the Faith was not all that unified in the first two-three centuries, due largely to persecution and the need to keep cells of believers separate from one another.

    The tradition of regional meeting between the clergy began in the 2nd century. Sprinkling used in the stead of WATER BAPTISM in direct contradiction of the SCRIPTURES began in 180 AD. Its a most difficult thing to bury yourself with Christ in a few drops of water. The beginning of MAKING THE SIGN OF THE CROSS during prayer late 2nd century. The dogma of teaching PURGATORY 230 AD.
    There are passages in II Maccabees, I Corinthians and others that support the notion of Pugatory.

    Making marriage by the Clergy illegal...3rd century. The first OFFICE OF BISHOP 3rd century. Easter was invented 325 AD. Confessing Sins to a priest 329 AD. The practice of CALLING Bishops from large cities ARCH BISHOPS 4th century. Monastic orders. 5th century (separation of certain orders of clergy from the public society). Christmast began in 360 AD. The doctrine of Inherited Sin began in the 400 AD. A Formal announcement that Roman Catholicism was the STATE RELIGION 360AD.
    Any point to be made here? Perfectly consistant with the needs of a growing Church.

    Candles used used in worship as a sacred element 417 AD. Mary was declared the MOTHER OF GOD 470AD. The dogma of TRANSUBSTANTIATION (the tradition that has the elements of the mass becomes the literal body of the Christ 492 AD
    Candles were used far earlier than that... they came from ancient Jewish practice. As for Mary, think about this... if Jesus is God, and Mary is Jesus' mother, doesn't that make her the Mother Of God??? As for transsubstantiation, it is a practice that far precedes its codification, and is completely consistent with the sciptures...

    you know, the rest looks like the same cut and paste claptrap from Catholic-hating Fundies that I am not even going to waste my time with the rest of the bigoted rubbish...
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  3. #183
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Then your response to his statement was not correct as I pointed out.

    Then you purposely cut out the first sentence as I said. It may have been unintentional, but re-reading your post, I doubt it. So this more than anything else was a hit on the credibility of the statement you picked to use.

    If I give you the benefit of the doubt about the whitewashing, at the very least you were manipulating the data to enforce your point.



    It is actually still spreading to this day in some places. So I guess the early expansion according to your statement never ended?



    What quote?
    As I said, I am not trying to downplay or manipulate anything. I know the Christians were persecuted and I have never tried to argue otherwise. I am still not arguing otherwise. I am still arguing that the religion wasn't spread through peaceful means, and that is what I meant from the very beginning... when I mentioned the inquisitions and the persecution of Pagans.

    The first part of that quote makes no difference to my point... as I am not trying to deny the facts or deny Christians were persecuted. I think you yourself said, it was a fledging religion at that point... and as it grew in popularity and the Catholic Church became more powerful, it was spread less peacefully and people who refused to convert were not tolerated.

    You're saying that I am whitewashing stuff now, because you are defining the spread of Christianity differently than me. That's all it boils down to, so I could just as well say you're the one whitewashing stuff and not me.

    I would consider the spread of Christianity into Europe, as being part of the "initial spread of Christianity" and I thought most people did....

  4. #184
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    I do not cut and paste. This came from documented HISTORY. Regardless of your opinion, your opinion does not preclude the truth from being THE TRUTH. If I use an external source, such is presented with a link.
    Still no documentation for your claim that there was a papal bull denying the Sciptures to the faithful???

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  5. #185
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Gutenberg was a Catholic, was he not? The Bible WAS translated into languages OTHER than Latin by CATHOLICS prior to the King James Version.



    Catholic teaching is that there are three sources of doctrine: Scripture, tradition, and the holy spirit. To think that anyone would like to LIMIT God to words written in a finite book is NOT Scriptural and signifciantly limits the power and love of God



    Yet, at the end of the fifth century, the pope stated that the Church and the State were SEPARATE. The Roman Empire was NOT the first state where Christianity became the official religion, BTW.



    You obviously don't understand the Church. The Scriptures also say that Peter would be the rock on which His church would be built. Peter is regarded as the first Bishop of Rome and subsequent Bishops of Rome were his successors. Jesus also said that what was bound on earth would also be bound in Heaven and what was loosed on earth would also be similarly loosed in Heaven.



    That was only when Lent was unified within the Church. What many anti-Catholics ignore is that the Faith was not all that unified in the first two-three centuries, due largely to persecution and the need to keep cells of believers separate from one another.



    There are passages in II Maccabees, I Corinthians and others that support the notion of Pugatory.



    Any point to be made here? Perfectly consistant with the needs of a growing Church.



    Candles were used far earlier than that... they came from ancient Jewish practice. As for Mary, think about this... if Jesus is God, and Mary is Jesus' mother, doesn't that make her the Mother Of God??? As for transsubstantiation, it is a practice that far precedes its codification, and is completely consistent with the sciptures...

    you know, the rest looks like the same cut and paste claptrap from Catholic-hating Fundies that I am not even going to waste my time with the rest of the bigoted rubbish...
    Funny as Hell, with all the Rhetoric you never refuted anything. Where in the scriptures does it suggest that Mary is to be worshiped? But there are countless passages that declare that only God is to be subject to worship. Are you suggesting that Mary was deity? If so, where does this authority come from? And how can Men be born into sin when Christ was Born of a Woman, Born under the Law, are we to assume that the Christ was born into Sin? As I said, its all Dogma based upon Tradition, not Scriptural Truth. Just like the Crusades were based upon Catholic Dogma and Tradition rather than Scriptural Christian Doctrine.
    Last edited by Walter; 02-18-11 at 11:52 PM.

  6. #186
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Funny as Hell, with all the Rhetoric you never refuted anything. Where in the scriptures does it suggest that Mary is to be worshiped? But there are countless passages that declare that only God is to be subject to worship. Are you suggesting that Mary was deity? If so, where does this authority come from? And how can Men be born into sin when Christ was Born of a Woman, Born under the Law, are we to assume that the Christ was born into Sin? As I said, its all Dogma based upon Tradition, not Scriptural Truth. Just like the Crusades were based upon Catholic Dogma and Tradition rather than Scriptural Christian Doctrine.
    Now, I KNOW you are relying on bigoted, ignorant versions of Catholicism. We DO NOT WORSHIP Mary... nice strawman...

    BTW, still haven't provided a link for your charge that the Pope banned the faithful from the Scriptures... where is it???

    You can now officially be regarded as completely discredited...
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  7. #187
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Hey, you are preaching to the CHOIR, there is only one TRUE RELIGION....that which is found existing as a revelation from God in the Holy Scriptures. And why are you PASTING OLD MOSAIC LAW...when that law was drafted specifically for one nation, the nation of Biblical Israel (Deut. 4, 5). And you never mentioned that the LAW then was indeed an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and these PEOPLE were being punished for BURNING CHILDREN they had stolen and enslaved to use as human sacrifices. The old law was nailed to the Cross of the Christ (Col. 2:14-17), we are abiding by the precepts established in the New Testament.
    Damn't I completely forgot about that Old Testament New Testament **** while I was making my list. Now I have to mark Old Testament, New Testament. Which version you follow, is based on the sect of Christianity. Therefore it applies to Christians.
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  8. #188
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Still no documentation for your claim that there was a papal bull denying the Sciptures to the faithful???

    Damn, I was making a point...that is an MO common to all people who wish to deflect, the circular arguments will continue regardless of the FACTS presented. How difficult is it to goggle the Actual history of such a Papal mandate? The Pope Innocent III stated in 1199? Here allow me to save you all the wear and tear on your precious little fingers...which I suspect was not really the problem..but more of a PRIDE THINGY? Now launch your attack on the source void of presenting any documented evidence to denounce the truth presented, another common trait, of the prideful.

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    Last edited by Walter; 02-19-11 at 12:09 AM.

  9. #189
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Damn, I was making a point...that is an MO common to all people who wish to deflect, the circular arguments will continue regardless of the FACTS presented. How difficult is it to goggle the Actual history of such a Papal mandate? The Pope Innocent III stated in 1199? Here allow me to save you all the wear and tear on your precious little fingers...which I suspect was not really the problem..but more of a PRIDE THINGY?

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    Those were references to UNAUTHORIZED translations!!! I knew that was coming... you Fundies are so predictable. There was no bull against the scriptires. The Bull was against translations that were not authorized by the Church...
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  10. #190
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Nope just copies of the original which are demonstrated to be TRUE by the Scientific Process of Comparative Analysis. When you have over 5000 copies found in many different locations and they all present the same truth, Science tells us that they all were copied from an original single source. But, of course YOU are much smarter than those who collected these manuscripts and placed them into a Canon, just decades after the fact....now 2000 years later, your intellect simply overwhelms, as clearly you know more than these people as per the originality of those manuscripts which were confirmed by the historical documentation of men such Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen..etc.
    I don't think any of that proves that you have a copy of the original Christian manuscripts. That also doesn't prove it's any more or less truthful than all of the different bibles we read today. That simply shows that whoever wrote it really wanted to spread it. Oh my god, people that have been dead for 2,000 years said something was authentic, that must make it that. Someone develops something, creates lots copies, and then convinces popular figures to support it, I smell some sort of political ploy. Although, I don't think your lying, I still have no reason to believe any of that is true.
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