View Poll Results: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

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  • Christianity

    22 26.19%
  • Islam

    62 73.81%
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Thread: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

  1. #121
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I'm not sure the religion of the respective people committing acts of violence and oppression is really an important factor, or even the most important factor, even when these acts are committed in the name of that religion. Maybe demographic and social factors have much more impact, and the respective religion serves as catalyst only?

    Now I may be wrong, and rely too much on the idea that reality shapes consciousness more than vice versa, in this case, but there are historical and sociological works that suggest such factors are usually related to trouble.

    For example, after Spain's "Reconquista" (the fight to topple Muslim rule in the 15th century), the country started conquering America, violently christianizing and enslaving native American peoples. Both, Reconquista and Conquest, could only happen -- or more or less had to happen -- because at that time, demographics in Spain were of a kind that provided a large excess of young males ready to fight, which, otherwise, would have had a very hard time to find a basis for life if the monarchy had not sent them to pillage. The rulers had a large resource of motivated potential soldiers and colonizers as carrot, and the problems that would have arised had these many young males not be provided with a purpose, as a stick. It was a no-brainer they chose to expand. It was not Christianity that caused them to do it. The prevalence of Christianity just resulted in Spain chosing it as justification, motivator and means to foster identity.
    Two points...

    1. The 'Reconquista' was the RECOVERY of Spain from Muslim aggression centuries earlier. It was a centuries-long process that was completed at the end of the 15th century.
    2. The 'violent' activities of the Conquistadors was NOT condoned by the Church, either in Spain or in Rome. In fact, Catholic missions repeatedly COMPLAINED about the harsh treatment of the natives; complaints that led to the ending of the encomienda system in the 1540s.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post


    *parties big time*

    I would have never imagined we'd come so far that anybody would justify and play apologist for the Crusades, Inquisition and Manifest Destiny. Wow ... just wow.

    Yeah, I know... truth and facts often come in the way of some people's agendas...

    The Crusades was a response to Islamic aggression, specifically the aggression of the Seljuqs in the Roman Empire. The emperor in Constantinople specifically requested help from the pope in Rome.

    Inquisition was not as bloody as Protestants make it out to be.

    The Manifest Destiny was, in reality, primarily a secular phenomenon...
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  3. #123
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Correction: The Roman Catholics in the west didn't care a whit for the Byzantine Christians; the crusaders regularly sacked Byzantine cities on the way to the holy land. Any assistance given by the Latins to the Greeks was just a flimsy pretext for a war of conquest.
    One incident in 1204 when the Crusaders were deposited in Constantinople by Venetian merchants does not constitute "regularly sacked"... You are obviously not all that aware of the circumstances behind the First Crusade...
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  4. #124
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I've already shared the actual history of the Crusades with you, and you choose to sweep it under the rug and claim that the Crusades were "not religiously motivated" despite all the evidence being to the contrary. Sorry, but you have been soundly defeated in this argument. Have a good one.
    No, you are giving your perspective of history. You are ignoring the fact that Constantinople was threatened by Seljuq Muslims and the Roman Emperor requested assistance from the Pope against the Muslims.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam? When I say "pushy" I mean which religion did more to spread itself by any means necessary and which one had more oppressive governments?

    For me, it's Christianity, seeing as how it was spread from Europe around the world and was used as a reason to screw over the indigenous peoples of the world.
    "Did" is past tense. Looking at the present world and the rise in attacks in christians worldwide by muslims would seem to indicate there is very little to debate if we only consider the present.
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  6. #126
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    How is this question even serious? Islam. Without a doubt.
    No intellegent person could think otherwise, given modern history...
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  7. #127
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    but many intelligent people do. not, i think, because they truly believe it... but because they want to believe it.

  8. #128
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    I think the best way to answer questions such as these would be to quantify the beliefs in some way. What percentage of Muslims, for instance, would punish apostasy by death vrs. the percentage of Christians holding the same views. You want pushy? It doesn't get any pushier than that.

    People have a habit of comparing two things that are not the same in such a way as to try to portray them as the same. The inevitable moral equivalencies they create are necessarily crafted in specious ways BECAUSE the two things they are comparing are not the same. If one group wants people join them so much that they snub those who leave their group, while another group wants to kill them for the same reason, the differences are in degree. Killing people is a much more strident approach than snubbing. If a large percentage of one group wants to kill them and a tiny percentage of another group wants to kill them, the difference is in terms of prevalence. In both cases, the parallels drawn are dishonest in nature if they are being portrayed as equatable.
    Last edited by Gardener; 01-23-11 at 11:48 AM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    but many intelligent people do. not, i think, because they truly believe it... but because they want to believe it.
    Ok then... Intelligent PlUS grounded in reality.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Oh, please, come up with something better than that. If you want examples of how bad religious extremists CAN be, I'll match you on both sides. How's Jim Jones and his cult doing, then?

    The point is, there are extremists from both beliefs, but the governments of our respective nations aren't bowing down to those extremists, and they never will.
    Do you suppose 9/11 was less pushy than Jim Jones's cult?

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