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Same sex marriage: what is it really?

What is same sex marriage?


  • Total voters
    62
So are gays as citizens of the USA forced via government to issue heterosexuals a marriage license?

hmmmm interesting note; i would have to say no because we have a representative government. majority of the representatives of the people and all that.
 
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You mean like blue laws? We ain't got those no more. No one forces me to go to church, no one forces me to believe in a certain god, no one forces me to not work on any particular day of the week (in fact, my professor would be quite irate if I wasn't working 7 days a week...****ing science). As such, there's no real law forcing people to keep holy the sabbath. Crappy blue laws, yeah those suck and most places seem to be doing away with them (except now it's highly resisted not by Christians, but by Supermarkets and the like who will sell a lot of beer on Sunday due to liquor stores being closed).

A dirty little secret is that many blue laws are still around...they were just recoded as "communal laws" and credited to "the will of the people"instead of "the will of God".
 
I ask this in all seriousness: Please tell me why SSM is any of my business;

Hallelujah! You are exactly right. It's none of your business, it's none of my business. It's really only gay people's business. In that, it's not really up to us to tell others they can't legally marry. Why should we be concerned? If they're happy, not infringing upon the rights of others; what business is it really of ours? None. We should mind our own beeswax (where the hell did that expression come from?).

how am I directly affected by a SSM ban; how will SSM directly affect me; what do I have to gain with the legalization of SSM?

How are you directly affected by the legalization of SSM? How will it directly affect you? Will you lose anything because of the legalization? Let's cut to the chase. What do you really get by preventing same sex couples from marrying? Why should you care that they get married? How much effort is it really worth? It's just as easy to vote yes for SSM as it is to vote no. Same amount of energy. All you have to do is vote yes. Same effort as voting no. So why is it worth it? Preventing a certain sort of folk from legally marrying? At the very least, if you vote yes...there's a chance the bitching will eventually go away. So long as it's illegal, the bitching will never stop. Hey, I'd like them all to STFU about it too. There's well more important things to worry about.
 
A dirty little secret is that many blue laws are still around...they were just recoded as "communal laws" and credited to "the will of the people"instead of "the will of God".

Not here. I can buy all the beer I want on Sunday. If I didn't spend the whole of it in a bar drinking beer, watching football.
 
I ask this in all seriousness: Please tell me why SSM is any of my business; how am I directly affected by a SSM ban; how will SSM directly affect me; what do I have to gain with the legalization of SSM?

I will completely drop the bull**** to get a straight and concise answer.

Really?
Ill play for now until you start being, well . . . . you? :D
Although your questions dont seem to really make sense.

1.)Please tell me why SSM is any of my business?
Its not thats why you shouldnt try to stop it, ESPECIALLY just for spite, which is ignorant as **** LOL but was probably you being you and just saying stuff

2.)how am I directly affected by a SSM ban?
YOU aren't but millions of american are discriminated against and thats wrong

3.)how will SSM directly affect me?
It wont directly effect YOU, indirectly the country you live in will rid itself of one more wrong.

4.)what do I have to gain with the legalization of SSM?
see answer above

is that what you wanted?
 
keep telling yourself that, tomorrow it still wont be true LMAO
like i said if you think its right, arge a reason it will get defeated just like all the others

You have been given reasons 100 times over, but you are unwilling to accept the truth of the situation.

Your problem, not mine. :mrgreen:

yep because people didnt want DISCRIMINATED and FREEDOMS something you obviously dont care about, just more empty spin talk by you

I cared enough to serve for 12 years. So again you make no sense.

thats it change the words add more spin to it LMAO
its wrong to discriminate based on sexuality PERIOD of course an avg joe can but that doesnt apply to the debate does it?

.......NOPE

more meaningless talk

So to be clear you got nothing and no such law exists, thanks for clearing that up.


it doesnt need to float with you, its just you being dishonest to feel better about your stance. Homosexuals are already a protected group like minorities so your OPINION is meaningless and that fact alone doesnt allow it to be a strawman it makes it an example of parallel of discrimination not a strawman.

I am against any protected groups as it flies directly in the face of liberty. Either the law is equal across the board in it's treatment, or it's not, period.

Government should never have got involved in marriage to begin with.

Yep you want to discriminate, just like racists, they saw it as black or white and black is wrong or vice versa, thanks I get it LOL

Has nothing to do with discriminating or wanting to discriminate. To assume such is just ignorant. Marriage is one man and a woman.

I will continue to support the sanctity of that institution.


LMAO more meaningless spin to the debate

So the basis of our laws and those who framed them are meaningless spin when it does not support your argument? :lol:

You have no business telling two sound mind consenting human adults who they can marry just like with interracial marriage, people saw that as "wrong" too, Im glad people didnt listen.

I have every right just like all the Americans who came before. Your opinion fortunately carries no weight either way.
 
I wanted to revisit some of the research indicating homosexual parenting is as good as or better than the male/female/biological/paradigm.

I'll use this study by dr's gartrell and bos. Their research was highlighted in this Time article. Here it is again in live science. Hell, even the usnews reported it. It must be true, right?

Well, I was able to find the site for this study by on this website. I appreciate that because it often difficult to see this type of research material without paying for it.

154 lesbian women in 84 families (70 birth mothers, 70 co mothers, 14 single women) enrolled in this study from flyers placed in areas that were frequented by lesbians. Over the course of the study, some 25 years, some participants dropped out, decided against staying in the study. Some 56% of the lesbian participants separated during the course of the study. Something like 70% of them shared custody of the offspring. The rest did not. All of the lesbian participants conceived thu invitro. Very little information was offered for the control group (heterosexual groups. Most of the information available for them was discerned from a chart.

Conclusion of study.
According to the authors of this study the offspring of the lesbians were "well adusted, demonstrating more competencies and fewer behavioral problems than their peers in the normative american population.

Financial support thefor this study;
the gill foundation, the lesbian health fund of the gay lesbian medical, horizons foundation, and the roy scrivner foundation.

Authors of the study.
Nanette gartrell. Dr gartrell is married to lesbian feminist activist and filmmaker dee mosbacher. Dr. henny bos is the other dr involved in the study.

Problems I have with the study.
The control group (heteros) were from several parts of the country. The lesbian groups were primarily from cities in the northeast and west. Whites comprised over 90% of the lesbians in this study. Whites comprised only 70% of the hetero group. Is this important? Yes!

This study was conducted by, administered by, financed by, lesbians. Is this proof of bias? No. On the other hand it's not unreasonable to suggest bias could certainly be a factor. Researchers often go to great length to remove all possibility of bias in studies in order to insure their validity. In this case I see little to suggest they addressed this issue at all.

The lesbian participants were self-selected. I'll give you a comparison. When polls are put on tv shows, in newspapers, and such asking for opinions they are presented as "unscientific polls." This is because the participants often have "motives" to participate. This is often construed as "bias." In "scientific polls" the participants are selected. This minimizes the chances of bias.

Are the conclusions of this study valid? Do lesbian couples and singles raise children as well or better than hetero couples and singles ? I don't know. I do know this particular study has enough flaws in it to call these conclusions into doubt. Before you read this and, hopefully, read the study yourself you couldn't tell by the times, usnews, and live science articles.

What does this say about the other studies? Nothing. Are the other studies valid? I don't know. Unless you know the particulars you don't know either. Does this mean you cannot trust any scientific studies, don't be silly. What this does mean is people need to be sceptical. People need to understand the "latest" and "greatest" study is just that, the latest. Science is an ongoing process. It never stops. Science is the search for facts, not truth. Science also works much better when free of politics.

What does this say about the other studies? Nothing. Are the other studies valid? I don't know. Unless you know the particulars you don't know either. I can tell you this is one of several recent studies that stand in stark contrast to the hundreds and hundeds of studies of the past several decades that indicate the male/female/monogamous paradigm produce the most consistantly well adjusted children extent. That and the intense political pressures that are beginning to be brought to bear. Science works best when politics aren't involved.

Does this mean you cannot trust any scientific studies, don't be silly. What this does mean is people need to be sceptical. People need to understand the "latest" and "greatest" study is just that, the latest. Science is an ongoing process. It never stops. Science is the search for facts, not truth.
 
You are within your rights to dissent. You are within your rights to hold your opinion of what marriage is. You are within your rights to denounce same sex marriage. You are within your rights to protest against it. You are within your rights to forbid same sex marriage in your church. You are not within you rights (as per the definition of rights, rights does not mean ability) to use government force against others whom have not infringed upon the rights of anyone else. That is the base. That is fundamental. That is America.

Read that back to yourself. Why would I dissent etc if I had nothing to gain? :doh

Yes, I'm sure you have. But in the end, you're in the wrong. The use of government force against the rights of the individual who has not infringed upon the rights of others is absolutely wrong.

Until the government gets out of marriage or makes gay marriage legal, I am acting well within the law.

Patrick Swayze would have kicked your ass.

He's dead, I win.

I will however give you +1 point for the Red Dawn reference as it was funny.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
Some of the stuff being said in this thread is pushing the boundaries of the rules. That ends now. Talk about the topic, talk about it civilly, and don't talk about other posters. If you cannot handle this, either don't post or don't be surprised at your infractions.
 
Hallelujah! You are exactly right. It's none of your business, it's none of my business. It's really only gay people's business. In that, it's not really up to us to tell others they can't legally marry. Why should we be concerned? If they're happy, not infringing upon the rights of others; what business is it really of ours? None. We should mind our own beeswax (where the hell did that expression come from?).

If it's non of my business, then why do they bring me into it?

When I was in AMWAY, when the Jehovah Witnesses came knocking, I invited them then so I could swing my own product. That's what I do here. I'm going about my life, and some pro-SSM come literally...literally knocking at my door trying to get me to sign a petition, cast my vote on a ballot, and write my Rep. So, ok, you want to play silly games? Very good, let's play silly games. I want broad marriage reform, so I'll authorize and support your SSM if that legislation also gives me broad marriage reform. If you don't want to play, that's fine, walk away, you came to my house. I didn't seek you out, you came to my house. You thrust your sexuality in my face (sexy) when you put your private personal business on a public ballot and asked me for my vote.

If it's non of my business, leave me alone. Quite posting public threads about it, it's not our business.

How are you directly affected by the legalization of SSM?

I might have a few more sister in-laws in the family?

How will it directly affect you?

If there are no children involved and/or the divorce rate is not affected, I don't see how it affects me in the least. it's therefore non of my business and no one should post another SSM thread ever again.

Will you lose anything because of the legalization?

Can't say I will, nope.

Let's cut to the chase. What do you really get by preventing same sex couples from marrying?

Not one god-damned thing.

Why should you care that they get married?

I don't. I care about broad marriage reform.

How much effort is it really worth?

They came to me.

It's just as easy to vote yes for SSM as it is to vote no. Same amount of energy. All you have to do is vote yes. Same effort as voting no. So why is it worth it?

If they don't scratch my back, I won't scratch theirs. That brings it to the level of just not voting, but I'll cast a negative vote for wasting my time. I also collect junk mail and send companies each-others junk in their own postage-paid envelopes. Same thing here.

Preventing a certain sort of folk from legally marrying? At the very least, if you vote yes...there's a chance the bitching will eventually go away.

Given that most SSM's will be of lesbian couples, I highly doubt the level of bitching will decrease.

So long as it's illegal, the bitching will never stop.

Fine, let's play ball then. Attach SSM to broad marriage reform and let's go.

Hey, I'd like them all to STFU about it too. There's well more important things to worry about.

Right, like the fact that my children were kidnapped 3 months ago. Seriously, the X took them and disappeared. But WTF, SSM is the most important thing to some people, so I'll come here and troll the **** out of them for their arrogance.


***

To be fair, I would support a national ban on SSM if doing so got me said broad marriage reform. I just don't care about either side of this issue....because either way it doesn't affect me.

My vote isn't free. You'll have to pay my price for it.

Otherwise I'm perfectly happy going back to my lvl60 Shaman who just got the 2-seater rocket mount from the Recruit-A-Friend program.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/antonidas/fenshou/advanced

Yes, that's a Taberd of the Hand worn by a Dwarf. My dwarf has the spacegoat only taberd. Mhmm.
 
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You have been given reasons 100 times over, but you are unwilling to accept the truth of the situation.

Your problem, not mine. :mrgreen:

100? LMAO please list them and then right next to them ill list why they have been debunked none have been sound, reasonable, logical, non-bias, non-selfish, non-arrogant, non-hypercritical, non anti-american non-discriminative reasons are there to "Stop" gay marriage

I invite the debate, no problem at all :D



I cared enough to serve for 12 years. So again you make no sense.
makes perfect sense, who knows why you served, and its awesome that you did

BUT it obvioulsy wasnt for the sinning gays you want to opress and discriminate against, it was only for the AMERICANS you choose



So to be clear you got nothing and no such law exists, thanks for clearing that up.

your welcome, a person discriminating on the street like who they want to date is ok
the point is thats MEANINGLESS to the debate just spin by you to feel right

why not just say, grass is green, thats also true and just as irrelevant :D




I am against any protected groups as it flies directly in the face of liberty. Either the law is equal across the board in it's treatment, or it's not, period.

good for you again doesnt change anything to this debate

and protected groups do not have to involve unequal treatment it can mean a recognized group to not be discriminated against thats the point of this debate

Government should never have got involved in marriage to begin with.






Has nothing to do with discriminating or wanting to discriminate. To assume such is just ignorant. Marriage is one man and a woman.

one man and one women is you opinion and discrimination.

of course YOU feel that way because people who discriminate often are ignorant to their hypocrisy and discriminative/bigoted ways. Just like the same people that thought marriage was between white and white.

I will continue to support the sanctity of that institution.

actually you support YOUR sanctity of it, something that is TOTALLY subjective, which is just your opinion and your opinion discriminates. LMAO




So the basis of our laws and those who framed them are meaningless spin when it does not support your argument? :lol:

wrong again,nice try, your point had no merit
my argument is discrimination plan and simple, try to spin it all you want, facts wont change



I have every right just like all the Americans who came before. Your opinion fortunately carries no weight either way.

not arguing against your right, again stay on topic
I said its none of your business and its not LMAO
 
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You have a good night.

I will do that, I told you, upsetting you made my day, it let me know im on the right path.

You do the same.
 
Really?
Ill play for now until you start being, well . . . . you? :D
Although your questions dont seem to really make sense.

1.)Please tell me why SSM is any of my business?
Its not thats why you shouldnt try to stop it, ESPECIALLY just for spite, which is ignorant as **** LOL but was probably you being you and just saying stuff

2.)how am I directly affected by a SSM ban?
YOU aren't but millions of american are discriminated against and thats wrong

3.)how will SSM directly affect me?
It wont directly effect YOU, indirectly the country you live in will rid itself of one more wrong.

4.)what do I have to gain with the legalization of SSM?
see answer above

is that what you wanted?

Morality is relative; your personal moral code is not mine. What seems wrong to you may not seem wrong to others. It's just your opinion.
 
Morality is relative; your personal moral code is not mine. What seems wrong to you may not seem wrong to others. It's just your opinion.

Huh? its not just my opinion that discrimination is wrong? Discrimination is wrong based on the law.
Well it was fun while it lasted, just you being you ;)
 
Huh? its not just my opinion that discrimination is wrong? Discrimination is wrong based on the law.
Well it was fun while it lasted, just you being you ;)

You said it was "worng". That's moralistic vocabulary. if you wanted to use a legalistic argument then you should have used the term "illegal"' or at worst "unethical". But you didn't. Oh well. The Game.
 
You said it was "worng". That's moralistic vocabulary. if you wanted to use a legalistic argument then you should have used the term "illegal"' or at worst "unethical". But you didn't. Oh well. The Game.

HAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHA
moralistic vocabulary? now thats definitely a game LMAO

its legally wrong :p
common sense
 
HAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHA
moralistic vocabulary? now thats definitely a game LMAO

its legally wrong :p
common sense

You know as well as I that semantics is the biggest silly game around here ;)
 
gay people have every right to marry. not a single one of their actions is restricted; they can have ceremonies, live, love, and grow old together; dying in each others' arms and being buried together as 'husband and husband' etc.

all they can't do is force the rest of us via government to issue them a marriage license.


This is not true for quite a few reasons.

First, a gay couple is not authorized legal recognition of their marriage in many states, therefore, unlike legally married couples, they are not guaranteed certain medical rights. One of these is to live together in a nursing home as a married couple.

HRC | Questions about Same-Sex Marriage
Nursing homes. Married couples have a legal right to live together in nursing homes. The rights of elderly gay or lesbian couples are an uneven patchwork of state laws. Home protection. Laws protect married seniors from being forced to sell their homes to pay high nursing home bills; gay and lesbian seniors have no such protection.
Like this couple's tragedy.
PRIDE in Utah » nursing home

There are other things along this line as well.

Plus, concerning afterlife/burial decisions, that would depend on what the couple has set up. Unlike legally married opposite sex couples, same sex couples have to get a lot of extra legal documents to take the place of what the marriage license provides for opposite sex couples.
Marriage laws ensure that opposite sex couples who have made a commitment to each other are able to decide where they are buried and can actually be buried wherever the other can, provided there is space available. This is not true concerning gay couples in just a personal marriage (not by choice). For instance, military members are entitled to have their spouse buried in a national cemetery. However, this does not apply unless the marriage is legal.

Eligibility - Burial and Memorial Benefits

Along with all this, there are other laws that won't apply to same sex couples without a legal marriage, including the law that allows someone's spouse to refuse to testify against their spouse, especially concerning intimate conversations.
 
This is not true for quite a few reasons.

First, a gay couple is not authorized legal recognition of their marriage in many states, therefore, unlike legally married couples, they are not guaranteed certain medical rights. One of these is to live together in a nursing home as a married couple.

Quote the US Title Code.
 
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