View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

    109 56.77%
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    62 32.29%
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    21 10.94%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #941
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Show me where exactly polygamy has worked, from a legal standpoint, in the same way that two person works in the US. Show societies that have polygamy where everyone in the marriage has equal rights. No coercion on anyone's part and the law recognizes everyone in the marriages as equal parts of the marriage and equal parts if the marriage doesn't work. Can the previous wives/husbands truly object to their spouse taking on another wife/husband?
    Most ancient society's as humans were polygamists at one time. In modern times it is recognized in...

    Kenya
    South Africa
    Sudan
    Pakistan
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen
    Oman
    UAE
    Qatar
    Bahrain
    Egypt
    Kuwait
    Iraq
    Iran

    The list goes on but you get the idea.

    The rest is for the individuals to decide who want to enter into the arrangement, not you.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And would it truly be an equal, non-discriminating setup if the first marriage always took precedent over the other marriages? Wouldn't that cause the subsequent marriages after the first to be automatically unequal, since the one partner that was involved in the many marriages would have say about such things as medical decisions for his/her partner, but the partner would not have that say in their spouse's place?
    Again that would be up to the party's involved. You are an adult, if you don't want to be a second or 3rd wife, don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And very few societies, if any, have actually had a three or more way marriage at once, where there are 3 or more people getting married at one time. There are polyamorous relationships out there that would also benefit from polygamy. But such marriages would cause a lot of issues also. Including, not identifying at all which person actually does have
    The first part of your statement is not true as it was the natural state of marriage in ancient times and for a large majority of natives in China, Africa and India for example.

    The amount of issues I have already shown to be irrelevant. We amended the constitution for other civil rights. Not a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Also, you are really being dishonest about what my argument is. I have said that we should figure out a way to ensure that people who truly want to be involved in polygamy should have a way to get a limited kinship granted to their other spouse (to ensure that they can actually get things like medical visitation and be protected in the case of a breakup of the relationship where they are the one getting out).
    That came after my initial response. You changed your tune when you realized your argument was no good. I can probably find the post if you like?

    Again you want it "separate but equal" and that as we know is not good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Legal marriage will not cover this as it is now. It would require a large change to many of the rules/laws governing marriage. Which is why such relationships should be advocating legal recognition that is not the same as two person marriages. In the mean time, while these things are being worked out/set up, it is quite simple to change marriage to include same sex couples.
    This is about the arguments used against those who do not want marriage redefined.

    I may not agree, but this one paragraph is about the best argument I have heard in this thread. Realistically speaking I don't see that happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    BTW, it is not a genuine argument that polygamy would fall under religious discrimination, because the state not providing a multiperson contract or allowing people to enter into more than one contract at a time in no way affects how they practice their religion. Even same sex couples who are married religiously cannot claim such a thing. They are not being arrested for practicing polygamy (although some are for exploiting children during the practice, but that is a different issue). They are just denied legal recognition because the number of people wanting to enter into the relationship is not compatible with the current laws/rules for legal marriage.
    I disagree. Certain religions as part of the practice of that religion allow and encourage multiple wifes etc. It is legal in Muslim country's for a reason. So no your argument is not valid.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-19-11 at 03:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #942
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How polygamy would be implemented in this country has everything to do with why the reasons that it is discriminated against are different than why same sex marriage is discriminated against. The implementation of same sex marriage is much easier than implementing polygamy. Polygamy is possible, in a limited form, but cannot be done under the current marriage rules. If someone absolutely wants to get polygamy instituted legally here, then they need to present a plan on how it would work without exploiting anyone in the marriage and ensuring that everyone is treated fair. It should also cover how to uniformly handle legal issues covered by the current marriage laws that would be an issue with more than two people involved. Same sex marriage advocates have already provided how legal marriage can be changed to work for them. It is the responsibility of the other groups that want such "equality" to argue for their side.
    So what? It would take more work. Oh no! Already covered this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #943
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Most ancient society's as humans were polygamists at one time. In modern times it is recognized in...

    Kenya
    South Africa
    Sudan
    Pakistan
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen
    Oman
    UAE
    Qatar
    Bahrain
    Egypt
    Kuwait
    Iraq
    Iran

    The list goes on but you get the idea.

    The rest is for the individuals to decide who want to enter into the arrangement, not you.



    Again that would be up to the party's involved. You are an adult, if you don't want to be a second or 3rd wife, don't.



    The first part of your statement is not true as it was the natural state of marriage in ancient times and for a large majority of natives in China, Africa and India for example.

    The amount of issues I have already shown to be irrelevant. We amended the constitution for other civil rights. Not a factor.



    That came after my initial response. You changed your tune when you realized your argument was no good. I can probably find the post if you like?

    Again you want it "separate but equal" and that as we know is not good enough.



    This is about the arguments used against those who do not want marriage redefined.

    I may not agree, but this one paragraph is about the best argument I have heard in this thread. Realistically speaking I don't see that happening.



    I disagree. Certain religions as part of the practice of that religion allow and encourage multiple wifes etc. It is legal in Muslim country's for a reason. So no your argument is not valid.
    The purpose of the marriage contract is to set up legal rights/responsibilities now. We, in the US, want people to be treated equally. Most of those countries do not feel that a woman actually does have the right to refuse to marry or they are pressured into the marriage by their family/religion. This is even true for the polygamy that we see in the US with the FLDS.

    I have argued that polygamy should be legal in some form this whole time, but that it cannot be argued as the same thing as same sex marriage. Same sex marriage is not that different than opposite sex marriage, nor does it require that new laws be made to ensure that people are not exploited or cheated by the arrangement. And many of the arguments against same sex marriage are not the same arguments against polygamy. Polygamy has a lot more arguments against it than same sex marriage does. Arguments that need to be seriously considered prior to allowing any form of polygamy.

    And the religion discrimination argument only works if you also consider that same religious argument for those same sex couples who get a religious marriage. Either it works for both, or it works for neither since neither needs the legal recognition to actually practice their religion the way they want without government interference.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #944
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So what? It would take more work. Oh no! Already covered this.
    So same sex marriage first, as we work out polygamy. Where's the problem then?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #945
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    So same sex marriage first, as we work out polygamy. Where's the problem then?
    I never said I had a problem with this?

    It was the only argument that avoids the hypocrisy of all the others.

    You have passed the test young Padwan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #946
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The purpose of the marriage contract is to set up legal rights/responsibilities now. We, in the US, want people to be treated equally. Most of those countries do not feel that a woman actually does have the right to refuse to marry or they are pressured into the marriage by their family/religion. This is even true for the polygamy that we see in the US with the FLDS.

    I have argued that polygamy should be legal in some form this whole time, but that it cannot be argued as the same thing as same sex marriage. Same sex marriage is not that different than opposite sex marriage, nor does it require that new laws be made to ensure that people are not exploited or cheated by the arrangement. And many of the arguments against same sex marriage are not the same arguments against polygamy. Polygamy has a lot more arguments against it than same sex marriage does. Arguments that need to be seriously considered prior to allowing any form of polygamy.

    And the religion discrimination argument only works if you also consider that same religious argument for those same sex couples who get a religious marriage. Either it works for both, or it works for neither since neither needs the legal recognition to actually practice their religion the way they want without government interference.
    Not that this addressed any of my points, but lets go with this.

    Some of the country's do, some don't but it is irrelevant as the law in the US would be different.

    The separate but equal argument does not fly under the law.

    The religious argument is just as valid under the 14th amendment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #947
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Personally, I think polygamy would only work if there were some fairly major shifts in our society, at the least, and most probably in human nature itself.

    In all cases I can think of where polygamous marriages or unions/families and the like have existed, the female is relegated to a lesser status than the male.

    If someone can give me an example of a polygamous (or polyandrous) setup wherein all members are equal, and get equal financial and otherwise shares out of it, I may consider changing my mind.

    Hell, even in fictional representations I’ve read of polygamous setups, the female has been relegated to a lesser status.

    I can possibly see a polygamous relationship working, but only if the individuals involved are exceptions, not being subject (or being able to overcome/bypass) the natural human natures which would normally be involved.
    Education.

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  8. #948
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This has little to do with how it would be implemented in the US. Has nothing at all to do with women not being able to marry multiple husbands. In fact this has already cropped up in the US.
    Those crazies in Arizona show us how it will be implemented. There's enough historical data to show the innate oppressive nature of polygamy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The fact that same sex marriage has been banned in the whole country at one time is not a precedent?
    There was never a time when we demanded a potential State remove Same Sex Marriage in order to enter the Union.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  9. #949
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Those crazies in Arizona show us how it will be implemented. There's enough historical data to show the innate oppressive nature of polygamy.
    So we should judge all black people by gang bangers? All gay people by those who do the parade? Sorry blanket judgments don't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There was never a time when we demanded a potential State remove Same Sex Marriage in order to enter the Union.
    I never said that. Nice job trying to play it off though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #950
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not that this addressed any of my points, but lets go with this.

    Some of the country's do, some don't but it is irrelevant as the law in the US would be different.

    The separate but equal argument does not fly under the law.

    The religious argument is just as valid under the 14th amendment.
    Since we can't truly discriminate against a "number" of people involved in a marriage, then there is no "separate but equal". There is no equal for everyone that might be involved in a polygamous marriage. You show me a way to guarantee everyone actually can be equal (and that means everyone), then it will work.

    Also, then you must agree that those same sex couples who are/get married in a religious ceremony in the US now are also being discriminated against based on their religion, as well as their sex. Good to know that you now agree that same sex couples deserve to be in legal marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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