View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

    109 56.77%
  • Equal protection

    62 32.29%
  • Other

    21 10.94%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #881
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    [b]Then you are discriminating, anti-American and against freedom, And then you must also think that marriage for a man and woman of two different races is not a right?
    Yep. I'm definitely okay with discriminating.

    Suggesting that being okay with discrimination, as a broad statement, is "anti-american" is ridiculous. The government discriminate based on sex in cases of alcohol, cigarettes, pornography, language, voting, and more. The government discriminates based on race in regards to things like affirmative action. The government discriminates with regards to sex on issues like females on the front lines. To suggest discrimination, blanketly, is anti-american is ridiculous.

    The issue of potential "Unamerican" feelings towards discrimination is when one pushes for disrimination that is unconstitutional. Specifically, discrimination that wrongfully removes someones rights due to their sex, skin color, age, religion, etc.

    In the case of marriage, sex is being discriminated against and sex holds a moderately high threshold of requirements on the part of the government to justify discrimination based on it. A threshold that I do not believe the discrimination inherent in marriage reaches.

    "Number of people" is not a protected status under the Equal Protection clause. There's nothing unconstitutional in suggesting that something two people can engage in must constitutionally be allowed for three people to engage in, or four, etc. Even if it was a protected status, it would rank at the lowest tier which does not require much of a threshold to justify government discrimination against them. And considering there are significantly more issues surrounding polygamy than there is with same sex marriage as to why its in the governments interest to discriminate against it, its reasonable to suggest that needing to meet a lesser threshold with far more ammunition is likely to happen. With things such as the potential tax loophole that opens up in allowing large amounts of people to enter into a binding agreement that would allow dozens upon dozens to file taxes as a single entity requiring significant rewriting of tax laws, or issues concerning incidents where a person is married to two separate people but those people aren't married to each other creating significant court issues regarding rights to act in the middle persons steed, the issues present before the government in legalizing polygamy are far larger than there are regarding legalizing same sex marriage.

    So sure....not allowing polygamists to marry multiple people is discrimination. Perfectly legally and perfectly "american" discrimination that is wholly different than the sexual discrimination present with marriage.

  2. #882
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yep. I'm definitely okay with discriminating.

    Suggesting that being okay with discrimination, as a broad statement, is "anti-american" is ridiculous. The government discriminate based on sex in cases of alcohol, cigarettes, pornography, language, voting, and more. The government discriminates based on race in regards to things like affirmative action. The government discriminates with regards to sex on issues like females on the front lines. To suggest discrimination, blanketly, is anti-american is ridiculous.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The issue of potential "Unamerican" feelings towards discrimination is when one pushes for disrimination that is unconstitutional. Specifically, discrimination that wrongfully removes someones rights due to their sex, skin color, age, religion, etc.
    No ones rights due to sex have been removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In the case of marriage, sex is being discriminated against and sex holds a moderately high threshold of requirements on the part of the government to justify discrimination based on it. A threshold that I do not believe the discrimination inherent in marriage reaches.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "Number of people" is not a protected status under the Equal Protection clause. There's nothing unconstitutional in suggesting that something two people can engage in must constitutionally be allowed for three people to engage in, or four, etc. Even if it was a protected status, it would rank at the lowest tier which does not require much of a threshold to justify government discrimination against them. And considering there are significantly more issues surrounding polygamy than there is with same sex marriage as to why its in the governments interest to discriminate against it, its reasonable to suggest that needing to meet a lesser threshold with far more ammunition is likely to happen. With things such as the potential tax loophole that opens up in allowing large amounts of people to enter into a binding agreement that would allow dozens upon dozens to file taxes as a single entity requiring significant rewriting of tax laws, or issues concerning incidents where a person is married to two separate people but those people aren't married to each other creating significant court issues regarding rights to act in the middle persons steed, the issues present before the government in legalizing polygamy are far larger than there are regarding legalizing same sex marriage.
    I agree, but the movement will get as loud etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "So sure....not allowing polygamists to marry multiple people is discrimination. Perfectly legally and perfectly "american" discrimination that is wholly different than the sexual discrimination present with marriage.
    Only different in that of opinion.

    But you proved my point it is indeed discrimination.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-15-11 at 11:34 PM.
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  3. #883
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yep. I'm definitely okay with discriminating.
    As am I. **** gays, the answer is no. Why? Because I'm discriminating against gays.

    ***
    See Capt'n this is the set-up. Usually when I say something like this a few unsuspecting members will respond, at which point I take their arguments and direct them back at Zyphlin as though they're my own words. Silly games.

  4. #884
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    **** gays.
    So do other gays.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Thank you.
    Your welcome.

    No ones rights due to sex have been removed.
    A man can do something a woman can't do, a woman can do something a man can't do.

    Specifically, a man can marry a woman but a woman can't marry a woman. A woman can marry a man but a man can't marry a man.

    I agree, but the movement will get as loud etc.
    The loudness of a movement is irrelevant as to whether or not there's a legitimate claim for unconstitutional discrimination.

    Only different in that of opinion.

    But you proved my point it is indeed discrimination.
    However, decisively pointed out that there's little legitimacy in suggesting discrimination in and of itself broadly is unamerican. However, legitimate question has been raised in courts as to the potential that there's sexual discrimination with regards to marriage. To my knowledge, there is currently no such situation regarding polygamy, nor have I seen any significant and factually backed argument supporting the EPC covering polygamy as I have seen with regards to same sex marriage. So a far stronger case for suggesting that discrimination is, if not unamerican, unconstitutional with regards to keeping the same sex from marrying where as I've yet to seen a legitimate case articulated for polygamy.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As am I. **** gays, the answer is no. Why? Because I'm discriminating against gays.
    That's fine. However if your discrimination is unconstitutional, which in light of recent court cases and with regards to actual legitimate portions of constitutional law that can be pointed out an argument could be made that the current marriage system is unconstitutional, then it really doesn't matter if you're "for" discriminating against them.

    Sadly "**** you all, the answer is no, I just want to discriminate you" is not a legitimate enough of a stance to even reach the level of the lowest tier of the EPC.

  7. #887
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Poligamists. What you have something against Muslims? Discrimination.
    Polyamorous means people who love more than one person. That would mean that my argument applies to both those who would want to marry multiple partners for love or for religious purposes. No discrimination. They should be allowed to do so with a different contract and different sets of rules concerning how such marriages would work, ensuring little to no exploitation of children and that some of the legal matters associated with the marriage contract are taken care of prior to opening up the legal recognition of such "groupings". Anything else opens up people to be taken advantage of (which is not something that should be done just for equality since it could be prevented by changing the contract).

    Same sex marriages do not require such drastic changes to ensure people aren't taken advantage of because they are underage or they don't know that their spouse is in another marriage or they don't have it arranged which spouse actually does have the legal right/responsibility to make decisions in lieu of another spouse.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Polyamorous means people who love more than one person. That would mean that my argument applies to both those who would want to marry multiple partners for love or for religious purposes. No discrimination. They should be allowed to do so with a different contract and different sets of rules concerning how such marriages would work, ensuring little to no exploitation of children and that some of the legal matters associated with the marriage contract are taken care of prior to opening up the legal recognition of such "groupings". Anything else opens up people to be taken advantage of (which is not something that should be done just for equality since it could be prevented by changing the contract).

    Same sex marriages do not require such drastic changes to ensure people aren't taken advantage of because they are underage or they don't know that their spouse is in another marriage or they don't have it arranged which spouse actually does have the legal right/responsibility to make decisions in lieu of another spouse.
    "Oh, it's to difficult"....so you only support equality when it's easy. Gotcha.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As am I. **** gays, the answer is no. Why? Because I'm discriminating against gays.

    ***
    See Capt'n this is the set-up. Usually when I say something like this a few unsuspecting members will respond, at which point I take their arguments and direct them back at Zyphlin as though they're my own words. Silly games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That's fine. However if your discrimination is unconstitutional, which in light of recent court cases and with regards to actual legitimate portions of constitutional law that can be pointed out an argument could be made that the current marriage system is unconstitutional, then it really doesn't matter if you're "for" discriminating against them.

    Sadly "**** you all, the answer is no, I just want to discriminate you" is not a legitimate enough of a stance to even reach the level of the lowest tier of the EPC.
    To continue, Capt'n, I'm pretty much going to ignore Zyphlin's post here because I'm not fishing for his response. I'm fishing for the over-reacting pro-SSM Liberal who probably signed up in the last 72 hours.

    Zyphlin, you have a sound-bite, 6-8 seconds, to sell yourself, as that's typically how long the average American is going to pay attention unless you succeed io grabbing them.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-16-11 at 03:08 AM.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Oh, it's to difficult"....so you only support equality when it's easy. Gotcha.
    Which is not what I said at all. I stated that the changes required to meet the legal needs for a two person same sex partnership are not nearly the same as those required to meet the legal needs for any marriage partnership with more than two people. The contract already adequately covers a two person arrangement. It does not adequately cover an arrangement with more than two people, legally speaking.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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