View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

    109 56.77%
  • Equal protection

    62 32.29%
  • Other

    21 10.94%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #491
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So if someone doesn't want to drive, they shouldn't get a license. If gays want to marry, they shouldn't be allowed to get a license until they can teach straight folk how to create a proper foundation to their marriages and thus decrease the divorce rate?
    No no, I failed to properly explain myself.

    I think these little lawsuits various groups spring up all over the country are half-assed attempts to partially change little pieces of law which doesn't even matter.

    What I would like to see is an over arching marriage reform act. I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment defining what marriage is, it's intended purpose, and require stricter regulation from the states in qualifying people for a license.

    I want to see a change away from the narrow focus of helping a token minority group, and towards something which will help everyone.

    Sure, fine, let gays marry...and require everyone to undergo personal finance counseling and pre-marital counseling, and raise the age limit.

  2. #492
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Ok, well I guess I can kinda see that point. But I don't really agree with it. We have a Marriage License, and that should be made available to everyone. That's the only change I think is necessary. I don't think we need any Constitutional amendments to define marriage; that's up to the individual. While things like personal finance counseling and pre-marital counseling is a very good idea, I can't see it as proper to force it through government. We should not have to ask government's permission to be married. And if we make poor choices in who we decide to marry, that's our fault and we must then live by those consequences. It sucks, but that's freedom. Freedom is like a length of rope. You can build a swing or hang yourself. It's up to you.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No one has said that. What has been said is that as soon as government usurped marriage by creating the Marriage License, it left the realm of religion and entered the realm of law. And laws in the United States are to be based on the rights and liberties of the individual. The government is not allowed to discriminate. And since the Marriage License is a government issued and recognized contract, there is no rational and just argument as to forbidding same sex couples their right to contract.
    Marriage, as a total institution, is social. Being a social organism, it is in the realm of law while in the realm of philosophy while in the realm of economy. Marriage is never 100% absent in any realm, though a specific given marriage may be unbalanced in some respect.

    According to the DoI, the very rights and liberties you defend were granted by the God you're trying to blot out. That's like spending an inheritance while denying that relative ever existed. By simply executing an activity afforded to you by liberty, you are evidencing the existence of God.

  4. #494
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    The DoI was part propaganda to excuse the act of rebellion against the Crown and to secure the support of the American people. They will appeal to that which they needed to appeal to in order to generate that support. However, rights do not require gods to exist, they merely require an organism capable of high, abstract thought; such as humans. Marriage is in many aspects, and many of those aspects are personal. The personal aspects of marriage are not what's on debate here. It's the legal context of marriage and the proper use of government in it. As such, so long as the Marriage License exists as a government issued and recognized contract; the right of the people to contract cannot legitimately be infringed upon.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Ok, well I guess I can kinda see that point. But I don't really agree with it. We have a Marriage License, and that should be made available to everyone. That's the only change I think is necessary. I don't think we need any Constitutional amendments to define marriage; that's up to the individual.
    I just think that since we all agree that marriage is a *right*, that it should be a right specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    While things like personal finance counseling and pre-marital counseling is a very good idea, I can't see it as proper to force it through government.
    In many states the government enforces concealed weapons classes, and that's a right. All states heavily regulate adoption and fostering, and raising children is a right. Why is something so vital to human society as marriage left unguarded against fools who get divorced half the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We should not have to ask government's permission to be married. And if we make poor choices in who we decide to marry, that's our fault and we must then live by those consequences. It sucks, but that's freedom. Freedom is like a length of rope. You can build a swing or hang yourself. It's up to you.
    you don't need the government's permission to have a religious ceremony, call your partner your "wife" or "husband", buy a house together and write living wills and powers of attorney. Not at all.

    But if you want the government to step in and afford you various protections, well then yes you need to be something the government wants to protect.

  6. #496
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The DoI was part propaganda to excuse the act of rebellion against the Crown and to secure the support of the American people. They will appeal to that which they needed to appeal to in order to generate that support. However, rights do not require gods to exist, they merely require an organism capable of high, abstract thought; such as humans. Marriage is in many aspects, and many of those aspects are personal. The personal aspects of marriage are not what's on debate here. It's the legal context of marriage and the proper use of government in it. As such, so long as the Marriage License exists as a government issued and recognized contract; the right of the people to contract cannot legitimately be infringed upon.
    Like any contract, like any right, you have to qualify.

    Including gays should be a footnote in a real piece of marriage protection legislation, not the main thrust.


    If we don't address the real problems, then once gays can marry, the divorce and juvenile crime rates will not change, and thus we'll know that nothing of value was accomplished.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-05-11 at 08:07 PM.

  7. #497
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I just think that since we all agree that marriage is a *right*, that it should be a right specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
    2 things. 1) I don't think marriage is in and of itself a right. Contract is a right, and marriage now exists as a government issued and recognized contract. That is what same sex couples have right to; the Marriage License. If the Marriage License did not exist, then it would be up to the individual churches and what have you to decide for themselves. Since government took it and made it a contract, it became a "right" in that the individual has right to contract. 2) This is what the 9th amendment is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In many states the government enforces concealed weapons classes, and that's a right.
    Well if you want to get me rolling on my opinions towards the 2nd amendment, I think those classes; while useful, are BS when forced. It's a good idea to learn to use your gun well and to carry at appropriate times, I do not think it is the place of government to force you to do that. You have the right to keep and bear arms. That, IMO, means that both open and concealed carry should be assumed standard and you should NOT have to get a permit for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    All states heavily regulate adoption and fostering, and raising children is a right. Why is something so vital to human society as marriage left unguarded against fools who get divorced half the time?
    Because that's their business, not yours or mine. People have right to contract, meaning they can enter into contract with another willing party at their leisure. If two folk decide that they want to enter into the contract of the Marriage License, they should be more than free to do so. If they didn't think it through or go through the proper courses, then it' that's their bad. They have to accept the consequences of their actions. Should have made a better choice, but I'm not going to sit around and make everybody's choices for them. They can do what they want so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others. As for children, it becomes a lot more complicated there particularly with adoption because there's another human involved beside two adults who consented to forming a contract. You have to make sure that child can be properly cared for. There's no right to adoption, it's just that through biology you can get kids on your own. And it's a can of worms right there trying to regulate biology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    you don't need the government's permission to have a religious ceremony, call your partner your "wife" or "husband", buy a house together and write living wills and powers of attorney. Not at all.
    You certainly don't. But that doesn't get you the contractual benefits and obligations that the Marriage License grants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    But if you want the government to step in and afford you various protections, well then yes you need to be something the government wants to protect.
    Government is to protect our rights and liberties first and foremost. Proper government will work towards that end.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #498
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because that's their business, not yours or mine. People have right to contract, meaning they can enter into contract with another willing party at their leisure. If two folk decide that they want to enter into the contract of the Marriage License, they should be more than free to do so. If they didn't think it through or go through the proper courses, then it' that's their bad. They have to accept the consequences of their actions. Should have made a better choice, but I'm not going to sit around and make everybody's choices for them. They can do what they want so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others. As for children, it becomes a lot more complicated there particularly with adoption because there's another human involved beside two adults who consented to forming a contract. You have to make sure that child can be properly cared for. There's no right to adoption, it's just that through biology you can get kids on your own. And it's a can of worms right there trying to regulate biology.
    The divorce of people I will never meet has and likely will again directly harm me through the communal cost of divorce and the resulting juvenile crime rate. That makes it my business.

  9. #499
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    you have every right to your opinion, but remember some of the founding fathers were adulterers and slave owners. did god not endow slaves with rights as well? my thoughts is that our rights weren't endowed by anyone, we make our own rights.
    Irrelevant. Slavery and adultery are not the issue here. What is relevant is that your opinion or argument makes mine no less relevant or valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Yes they actually have been thoroughly debunked about "stoping" gay marriage. There is no changing that, if you are so certain by all means bring one up that is sound, reasonable, logical, non-bias, non-selfish, non-arrogant, non-hypercritical, non anti-american non-discriminative reasons are there to "Stop" gay marriage.

    I always quote STOP because thats whats key and the debate. You are free to think, preach, teach etc what ever you want but stopping it is WRONG. And im not talking about just the act of voting, that is a freedom too but doing so is wrong and has been proven here and other threads over and over again.

    Ive debated this with you before and you know they have all been debunked

    I respect your views,(please correct me if Im wrong)

    you view god as your highest law and thats fine and dandy
    you view god as thinking gay marriage would be a sin and thats fine and dandy
    you view the bible as more important and bigger law then the constitution and thats fine and dandy

    YOU have the right to do all those things, and I would defend those too! but once you try to force those views on me as an american you are flat out wrong. As long as its sound mind consenting adults its none of your business who I or other people merry just like its none of my business who you merry. Its also wrong to discriminate. YOUR religious beliefs are great for YOU. For others they are not. If gay marriage becomes legal tomorrow you lose nothing, you get to keep all that I have already mentioned, but, today, right now, american citizens dont have the same rights and thats wrong plain and simple.

    Again YOU believe what you want, I will always respect and fight for that freedom cause you are an american just like I respect and will fight for the gay americans not to be discriminated against.
    I as an American citizen can certainly force what I want as far as laws go any way I wish. That is what our court system is for.

    SO no nothing has been "debunked" no matter how much you rant about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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