View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #31
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, I am advocating the exact same kind of change that came from the Loving v. VA decision, expanding marriage to include other people. Doing so will not cause harm to any person or potential person (I am pro-life btw). It is simply a change to tradition.

    People will always be fighting about abortion, even if religious people become a minority, because there are plenty of people out there who consider abortion (in most cases) to be taking the life of a child, no matter how a particular higher power may feel about it. Homosexuality is mainly fought because of religion (there are a very small minority who simply find it icky without any religious problems with it, but most without religious convictions against it could care less about whether or not they are allowed to marry).
    Ok, you oppose using government as a agent to affect societal change for the benefit of a minority, in this case upper class white women, against the will of the majority of it's peoples for abortion but you are a supporter of this same tactic in the case of gay marriage, also for the benefit of a minority against the wishes of the majority of americans? Have you thought this thing thru? Am I misreading your position on this?

    I'm not looking at this thru the lens of religion. I don't attend church. I see both issues thru the lens of it's effects on my culture and the democratic party's commitment to identity politics.

    I must also reiterate my support for the idea of a government commited to representing it's people. The problems with a multi-cultural society such as our is the government cannot adequately represent all the needs and wants of so many different cultures. Using government to advance the cause of one culture/sub-culture means a loss for the other cultures making up this country. At some point it will experience an epic failure. It's mearly a question of time.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-01-11 at 01:10 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  2. #32
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Book Antiqua"]Ok, so you are a supporter of life yet you propose using the same tactic's used to kill off tens of millions of americans in an effort to increase democratic party support among upper class women. Have you thought this thing thru?

    I'm not looking at this thru the lens of religion. I don't attend church. I see both issues thru the lens of it's effects on my culture and the democratic party's commitment to identity politics.

    I must also reiterate my support for the idea of a government commited to representing it's people. The problems with a multi-cultural society such as our is the government cannot adequately represent all the needs and wants of so many different cultures. Using government to advance the cause of one culture/sub-culture means a loss for the other cultures making up this country. At some point it will experience an epic failure. It's mearly a question of time.
    How does same sex marriage kill or even harm anyone directly? Give proof of this, and you have a case.

    BTW, I do not vote for candidates based on one issue. I vote for the candidate who has the most number of issues that I can agree with them on, and hope like hell that they actually are able to get those things done while not screwing up anything that I disagree with them on. And, that candidate in the 2008 Presidential election happened to be McCain, not Obama, despite McCain's discriminatory views on gay rights issues.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #33
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How does same sex marriage kill or even harm anyone directly? Give proof of this, and you have a case.
    I don't believe I suggested gay marriage would kill anyone. Nor did I suggest it would harm the participants. Of course neither do bestiality or necrophilia. However, neither are supported by tradition western european culture either. I can say marriage has an important role as an institution that supports the procreation and rearing good citizens for that culture. It's much the same with all successful traditional cultures.

    I could argue that gay marriage has nothing to do with either procreation or raising citizens. Keep in mind I firmly believe children represent a black hole of need and one of those many needs are two parent of both genders and whenever possible biological. I am a conservative after all.

    In regards to gay marriage in the here and now I see this as a political issue. One in which the democratic party wishes to reward a valued demographic for it's support and monies over the years. I see abortion as a result of the same kind of identity politics that also benefited the democratic party decades ago. Do you want to argue abortion hasn't harmed or killed anyone?


    BTW, I do not vote for candidates based on one issue. I vote for the candidate who has the most number of issues that I can agree with them on, and hope like hell that they actually are able to get those things done while not screwing up anything that I disagree with them on. And, that candidate in the 2008 Presidential election happened to be McCain, not Obama, despite McCain's discriminatory views on gay rights issues.
    Ok. You do realize that I don't harbor any animosity against you or yours. I disagree with your ideas on gay marriage. I reject your vision for this country but that is all.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  4. #34
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I don't believe I suggested gay marriage would kill anyone. Nor did I suggest it would harm the participants. Of course neither do bestiality or necrophilia. However, neither are supported by tradition western european culture either. I can say marriage has an important role as an institution that supports the procreation and rearing good citizens for that culture. It's much the same with all successful traditional cultures.

    I could argue that gay marriage has nothing to do with either procreation or raising citizens. Keep in mind I firmly believe children represent a black hole of need and one of those many needs are two parent of both genders and whenever possible biological. I am a conservative after all.

    In regards to gay marriage in the here and now I see this as a political issue. One in which the democratic party wishes to reward a valued demographic for it's support and monies over the years. I see abortion as a result of the same kind of identity politics that also benefited the democratic party decades ago. Do you want to argue abortion hasn't harmed or killed anyone?




    Ok. You do realize that I don't harbor any animosity against you or yours. I disagree with your ideas on gay marriage. I reject your vision for this country but that is all.
    Beastiality nor necrophilia have provide any benefits for the people involved nor society as a whole. Plus, beastiality and necrophilia are both sexual acts, not sexualities, and are both illegal acts.

    Homosexuality is about the attraction of a person to a member of the same sex. It does not involve dead people (who cannot consent to sex) or animals (which also cannot consent to sex). Nor does it have to involve sex at all. It is quite possible for a person to form a loving and even intimate relationship with another of the same sex without having sex, just like it is possible for a person to form a loving and intimate relationship with a person of the opposite sex without having sex.

    Marriage is not just about procreation and raising kids. If it were, then many opposite sex marriages would not be allowed, including those when one or both of the partners is infertile or when the woman of the couple has gone through menopause. Also, the government would not be recognizing marriages between cousins from states where those cousins cannot get married unless they cannot procreate. And, to top all this off, the government recognizes the state's view on what the state considers the "gender" of the person within a marriage. So, if a person has undergone gender reassignment surgery and their state recognizes them as the new gender, then they can marry someone of the same genetic sex as them.

    Plus, gay people can have children. There could be children from other marriages/relationships. There is surrogacy, and there is adoption. Your ideal parenting situation is not always available for most children, even those raised by their biological mother and father. Any loving parent is better than none, and two are better than one, no matter what their sexes or sexualities.

    Marriage serves many purposes, but the one that applies to every couple, is that it makes a person a member of another person's legal family, eventhough the two are not blood related.

    There are also other benefits to society that come from marriages, including someone to make legal and/or medical decisions for a person in the event of incapacitation or death. Someone to be legally responsible for the burial costs/decisions of a deceased person. Someone to be legally responsible for the debts of a deceased person. Stable households in which the couple is married are all better for the community, no matter the sexualities of the couple.

    The only negative you have is a change in tradition. Which many do not see as a negative at all.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #35
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I don't believe I suggested gay marriage would kill anyone. Nor did I suggest it would harm the participants.
    I wanted to address this separately.

    You did suggest that gay marriage somehow kills or harms someone just by equating it to abortion.

    Abortion kills a living being, even pro-choice people admit this. They believe that the rights of the mother are more important than the fetus's right to life. I don't agree. But there really isn't any denying that a being loses its life in an abortion. It just becomes a matter of whose rights are more important.

    However, that is not the same issue as same sex marriage. The issue here is one group of people having the right to enter into a marriage contract with someone that they actually want to become their closest family member vs. another group's right to deny those people that right because of their traditions and/or beliefs.

    This is why I gave the much better comparison of same sex marriage to interracial marriage. There really isn't much debate anymore about allowing interracial marriage, despite the amount of people who were against changing the laws to allow it. Most people accept interracial marriages as a right.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #36
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Beastiality nor necrophilia have provide any benefits for the people involved nor society as a whole. Plus, beastiality and necrophilia are both sexual acts, not sexualities, and are both illegal acts.

    Homosexuality is about the attraction of a person to a member of the same sex. It does not involve dead people (who cannot consent to sex) or animals (which also cannot consent to sex). Nor does it have to involve sex at all. It is quite possible for a person to form a loving and even intimate relationship with another of the same sex without having sex, just like it is possible for a person to form a loving and intimate relationship with a person of the opposite sex without having sex.

    Marriage is not just about procreation and raising kids. If it were, then many opposite sex marriages would not be allowed, including those when one or both of the partners is infertile or when the woman of the couple has gone through menopause. Also, the government would not be recognizing marriages between cousins from states where those cousins cannot get married unless they cannot procreate. And, to top all this off, the government recognizes the state's view on what the state considers the "gender" of the person within a marriage. So, if a person has undergone gender reassignment surgery and their state recognizes them as the new gender, then they can marry someone of the same genetic sex as them.

    Plus, gay people can have children. There could be children from other marriages/relationships. There is surrogacy, and there is adoption. Your ideal parenting situation is not always available for most children, even those raised by their biological mother and father. Any loving parent is better than none, and two are better than one, no matter what their sexes or sexualities.

    Marriage serves many purposes, but the one that applies to every couple, is that it makes a person a member of another person's legal family, eventhough the two are not blood related.

    There are also other benefits to society that come from marriages, including someone to make legal and/or medical decisions for a person in the event of incapacitation or death. Someone to be legally responsible for the burial costs/decisions of a deceased person. Someone to be legally responsible for the debts of a deceased person. Stable households in which the couple is married are all better for the community, no matter the sexualities of the couple.

    The only negative you have is a change in tradition. Which many do not see as a negative at all.
    I considered answering each of your well thought out and thought provoking arguments. However, I won't. Ultimately this will only come to naught. You will simply come to the conclusion I'm an ignorant lout fully incapable of appreciating "logic." Your logic.

    You see what this boils down to is a matter of politics. Politics based on cultural differences and mores. I'm more than willing to compromise, a distinct cultural trait. I've stated on this forum and others many times I would support civil unions, along with my obama. I am willing to let the states decide the issue, as with abortion, as long as my state has the same capability.

    But your culture cannot and will not compromise, also a cultural trait btw. Yes, I can appreciate your position. You want to believe your cultural mores are superior to mine. You want to believe your position is based on love, tolerance, science, and dispasionate reason. I like that last one. There can only be one truth in the universe, and it's mine.

    Sorry, no sale. I view your culture as essentially flawed. It cannot reproduce it's own numbers. You people take too many shortcuts, and it's hurt not only you, but the rest of us as well. Ultimately, your culture will die. It's dying now, of decadence. It's child and family unfriendly. It's materialistic, narcissistic, inhumane and completely absorbed with tertiary issues completely unrealated to survival.

    Traditional western european culture has survived thousands of years largely intact. I'm just wondering how it can survive your humanistic variation. I don't want to change your culture, I just want to be free of it. I want to be left alone. I want to continue to do my part to create a just and fair society, one that can survive into the next century or so. We simply cannot do that if we are to submit to every whim your culture deems appropriate for us to adopt. It isn't that I don't understand your position on this or any other issue you deem important. I just reject it. You voted for the wrong man. Next time vote for mr obama. The least you can do is to be honest with yourself.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-01-11 at 03:48 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  7. #37
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I wanted to address this separately.

    You did suggest that gay marriage somehow kills or harms someone just by equating it to abortion.Abortion kills a living being, even pro-choice people admit this. They believe that the rights of the mother are more important than the fetus's right to life. I don't agree. But there really isn't any denying that a being loses its life in an abortion. It just becomes a matter of whose rights are more important.

    However, that is not the same issue as same sex marriage. The issue here is one group of people having the right to enter into a marriage contract with someone that they actually want to become their closest family member vs. another group's right to deny those people that right because of their traditions and/or beliefs.

    This is why I gave the much better comparison of same sex marriage to interracial marriage. There really isn't much debate anymore about allowing interracial marriage, despite the amount of people who were against changing the laws to allow it. Most people accept interracial marriages as a right.
    No I didn't. I suggested, strongly, they flowed from the same well, that of democratic party identity politics. I'm somewhat surprised you don't seem to understand that. You did indicate you oppose abortion. Please don't assume I only need a proper analogy in order to "see the light." I see and understand these issues quite well thank you.

    Usually when well meaning individuals such as yourself assume I'm just ignorant and can be brought around. Normally you guys get very angry and hostile when I do not. Pity. The truth is I've arrived at my positions on a number of issues after a great deal of introspection, education, and personal experiences, just like you. I've simply come to different conclusions than you. That should be completely understandable from individuals from very different cultures.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-01-11 at 04:00 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  8. #38
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    I voted for “other” because marriage shouldn’t be recognized by the government in the first place.
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 01-01-11 at 04:06 PM.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  9. #39
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I voted for “other” because marriage shouldn’t be recognized by the government in the first place.
    That's the libertarian argument.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  10. #40
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    That's the libertarian argument.
    I'm not a Libertarian but I often agree with them.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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