View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

    109 56.77%
  • Equal protection

    62 32.29%
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    21 10.94%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #321
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    So basically you are for a pure democracy. You are against the Bill of Rights, and support the ability of 51% of the population to tell 49% of the population that they have no rights.
    Just because the majority of the people are for it, doesn't mean the government should endorse it. That is not how this government was set up, you're opinions should not take away my rights, and the government should protect the rights of minorities.
    The problem You Star is when people believe in their bible MORE than any country laws/rights etc. Their bible trumps the constitution or bill of rights etc etc

    Now look I have NO problem with religion at all, or the belief that god is bigger than AMerica, I believe in god, but once the people want to force theirs on me I have to laugh at them because as Americans it makes them an instant hypocrite.
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  2. #322
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the government does not take the positive action of issuing them a marriage certificate. surely you are not coming out in favor of positive rights?



    the Constitutional protections of which you speak do not lend themselves easily to your argument for two reasons:

    1. it is explicitely within the provision of the State Governments to define marriage and to set the preconditions for recieving a license, just as they set preconditions for recieving any other license that they grant.
    2. that Constitution IS the People; specifically it is a supermajority of them.
    3. Powers not reserved for the Federal government are reserved first to the State and then to the people. only powers of the Federal Government are few and enumerated; powers left to the State are of the General Police variety.

    run cpwill ruuuun but you cant hide lmao
    yes that same constitution of the PEOPLE that ruled over the MAJORITY in minority rights, womens rights and interracial marriage. oooooooops huge flaw in you uhm ah logic?

    Keep trying your false angle over and over again it will never be right.
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  3. #323
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Really, SSM is only a matter of time, if only my generation woke up and voted.
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  4. #324
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the government does not take the positive action of issuing them a marriage certificate. surely you are not coming out in favor of positive rights?
    Whether or not I agree with "positive rights", the fact remains that the government ISSUES and RECOGNIZES the Marriage Certificate as proper contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the Constitutional protections of which you speak do not lend themselves easily to your argument for two reasons:

    1. it is explicitely within the provision of the State Governments to define marriage and to set the preconditions for recieving a license, just as they set preconditions for recieving any other license that they grant.
    2. that Constitution IS the People; specifically it is a supermajority of them.
    3. Powers not reserved for the Federal government are reserved first to the State and then to the people. only powers of the Federal Government are few and enumerated; powers left to the State are of the General Police variety.
    The States are now held to the federal Constitution bill of rights. While they are to have more power than the federal government, they cannot rightfully infringe upon the rights of others who did not first infringe upon the rights of someone else first. Powers not reserved for the federal government are reserved for the State or the people. And while the State has more "rights" (it's not proper use of the term as only individuals have rights) than the federal government, they are still beholden to the rights and liberties of the individual. The Constitution was constructed by forward thinking men of the time. While it wasn't perfect, they understood the proper question to ask. In short, people like you ask "What do I think is right?" and the question the founders asked was "Is it right for the government to act in this manner?". There is a HUGE difference between the two questions. The latter you can have something you don't like, you don't think is right; but to understand that it is not proper use of government to forbid it. The former is tyranny.
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  5. #325
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    again just like the people didnt want womens rights, minority rights and interracial marriage.
    actually Christians were at the forefront of all these things. particularly Civil Rights. which makes sense; as the notion of the fundamental equality of man is a Christian concept.

    Im so glad that MY country luckily does'nt listen to you because it would have never become AMERICA.
    odd, isn't it, that that is precisely what the "anti" homosexual movement people also say. what wonderful Founding Ideals we have that everyone seeks to claim them while denying them to their opponents.

    mind you, that's also part and parcel of the Fundamental Assumption fallacy....but hey , it's common enough.

    you might get a kick out of reading something posted elsewhere (i entitled it my resignation from the Religious Right)
    Nations in the Old World were founded upon Blood and Land. This was my dirt, we were the people with the foreheads and eyes that looked just so, and we had always been here, so shove off. The United States of America was - uniquely in her time - founded upon a set of ideals. This marks a fundamental difference in our social DNA. You can tell by how we go about hating each other. Nobody in England (so far as I am aware) wins elections by subtly hinting that their opponent is “anti-British”; nor do French politicians bicker over who is betraying the belief system of Louis XVI. In America, however, anti-war protestors are “anti-American”. Also, those who call anti-war Protestors “anti-American” are themselves, apparently, “anti-American.” Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism except when it’s not: Tea Party protestors are anti-American, as are those who try to intimidate or silence them. Republicans who oppose healthcare reform as put forth by Democrats are the “enemies of America,” while Democrats who put forth the reform “want to be like Europe” (ie: not ‘like’ America). We all are on agreement that we have a set of ideals; that these ideals define Who We Are as a Nation; and that it is such a good set of ideals that everyone wishes to claim them while denying their nobility to whomever they wish to tarnish in the public eye.

    It IS a good and noble set of ideals. They are very Christian and (c)atholic in nature. All men are created equal, and are imbued with certain dignities and rights by their Creator. Governments that oppress their people are not just inefficient but fundamentally wrong. They deserve to be overthrown and replaced with a better way. The best government is that which most protects the rights and liberties of it’s people; the kind of government most likely to do that is one which is limited; the kind of government most likely to remain limited is a representative one marked by the free competition of idea(l)s. In one sense this agreed-upon common ground for “America’s Founding Ideals” seems the most basic starting point to create a decent society, but to us it is the highest set of governing ideals yet attained in mans’ many, painful centuries.

    It is also universalistic. Americans do not simply believe that freedom, dignity, and liberty are for them; we believe that it is intended for all humanity. We have since the beginning; it’s in our founding document. That’s why we so easily get pulled into actions much of the rest of the world deems arrogantly unilateralist; their foundations don’t demand universal application. It’s why we were the threat to Communism in the 20th Century, it’s why we are the threat today to Islamist Fundamentalism: both of them recognize another universalistic creed when they see it. In fights between such paradigms, one of us must survive to ultimately take over the entire world, and one of us must die.

    And this is a great danger for modern Christian Americans, particularly conservative ones. It is all too easy for us to mistake which universalistic creed founded upon noble ideals we are supporting. We confuse them, blend them; ideologically we are prone to build an American Identity that is Conservative Christian and a Christian Identity that is fundamentally American. For my fellow conservatives to whom that last sentence doesn’t fully click, consider: One sect of us, the Catholics, are now dealing with a painful scandal involving pedophile priests because some of its leadership confused serving the Church with serving God. They made the institution their god, and served it instead. The Catholic Church has done incredible good around the world, engaged in brave and dangerous sacrifice to bring God’s Truth to all peoples’, it is a noble institution… which is why it was easier for Satan to trick some of its’ members into making that confused identification. The United States of America, too, is a noble nation founded on a noble set of ideals, which has engaged in brave and dangerous sacrifice to bring freedom to peoples around the world… which is why it is easy for Satan to convince us that it is only “Christian” to honor and serve it in ways that are meant only for God. “Americanism” becomes our a priori argument; we hang American flags in our worship services, the identity of our faith group (Christians) and our political group (Republicans) becomes in some places fused. Even the logic of sanctification can get co-opted. The first thing we reach for when under ideological attack is our identity: You Can’t Attack Me, I’m A Proud American / Patriot / Veteran/ and so forth. When did our service to a country or ideological inclination pick up even a hint of purifying our deeds and persons? The Christian Coalition for America tells me that the major goal for Christians in this country is (using our incredible wealth to bring medical aid to Africa?) (using our world-dominating military to stop genocide?) (using our unique blend of many denominations to lead the way in Ecumenical efforts?)… preserving a series of tax cuts from the last Republican Administration.

    Now, I’m not against tax cuts. But I’m against Believing in tax cuts. I’m not against my country nor it’s founding ideals. But I’m against putting my Faith in my nation and its’ founding ideals. All things built by man crumble to dust; only those things we build explicitly on and in Gods’ will have any chance of survival (and depending on how you look at Revelations; even those are doomed). If we put our faith, if we believe, in that which we design by man for man… then we have built our house on sand, and however well we have built it, it will be swept away and we shall perish.

    This is perhaps a point of fine distinction, but I think it is a critical one. I know I’m accusing many Christians who are far stronger and wiser in the faith than I of setting up idols, and I apologize in advance if it turns out in the end that I’m an idiot and just wasted however much of your time it took you to read this far.

    But bear with me; though I warn, if you have a vindictive streak (like I do), you will have to fight its temptation where I’m going (like I will). In airing our dirty laundry I begin with a self-conviction (I know the problem with worshiping at the Christian Church of Americanism because I’m a deacon there) as my introduction into warning our brethren on the Left against a similar mistake. In our (Christian) drive to bring dignity and freedom to man, we have surrendered part of our worship to a nation, to a political ideology, and, to a lesser extent, to militarism; we have mistaken our tools for our desired end. Our Liberal Christian brethren have done something similar; except where Conservatives “believe” in tax cuts (and being something called ‘red-blooded’), Liberals “believe” in ‘progressive’ social programs. I begin by admitting to the log in my own eye so that I can move to warn them that the condition is contagious (this is the first in what is going to be a series). Satan loves little better than to corrupt us via our most noble intentions.
    As a matter a fact you and your hypocrisy are also lucky because with out our constitution and what we consider rights you may not be able to practice that religion of yours LMAO
    indeed i might not; as many Christians around the world are not. i wouldn't even say that we are lucky, I would say that we are blessed and that with that comes responsibility to A) use those freedoms wisely and B) see to it that others come to gain the freedoms that we have been given.

    Oh but Im sure if YOUR rights were discriminated against THAT would be different LMAO
    if either of our rights were being attacked that would indeed be very different from the homosexal marriage debate.
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-03-11 at 10:34 PM.

  6. #326
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Really, SSM is only a matter of time, if only my generation woke up and voted.
    It is just a matter of time, which is why I think we should get it done and over with. On a legal perspective I think that SSM should be legal and recognized. On a personal level, however, I don't give a damn. I don't care who marries who, it's not my business. Don't infringe upon the rights of others, and don't involve me; that's all I ask. If you do those things, I'm OK with you doing anything your little heart desires.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #327
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Really, SSM is only a matter of time, if only my generation woke up and voted.
    Agreed, I dont know what reality he lives in but ALL his examples have been disproved by HISTORY and facts he seems to ignore.
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  8. #328
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Really, SSM is only a matter of time, if only my generation woke up and voted.
    that's how it's been since at least Mondale. as people age, get married, and have children, they tend to become more conservative. i suspect in many ways our generation will be even more so.

  9. #329
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Agreed, I dont know what reality he lives in but ALL his examples have been disproved by HISTORY and facts he seems to ignore.
    Yep, the rights of minorities would be a lost cause if left up to the majority.
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  10. #330
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    run cpwill ruuuun but you cant hide lmao
    if i was hiding i wouldn't exactly be in the thread, nor have let your star pull me into this side debate that detracts from the actual OP.

    yes that same constitution of the PEOPLE that ruled over the MAJORITY in minority rights, womens rights and interracial marriage.
    no, you are confusing what was acually done through Constitutional amendment, legal statutory issuance, and Supreme Court ruling. the three are in no way all representative of a supermajority of the people expressed as such via the Constitution.

    oooooooops huge flaw in you uhm ah logic?
    no, merely a flaw in your approach. you seem to have a race = sexuality assumption, and your arguments stem from the apparent belief that i do, too.

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