View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #311
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    because nothing will have really changed (you yourself might be ecstatic, i don't know). society will feel exactly the same way it did the day before-hand; if anything there may be backlash (one of the downsides of representative government; you can't run roughshod over the expressed will of the people without them getting all uppity about it).

    my (adoptive) sister, for example, lives in the world where she will be married one day. except that she also sees her mom helping her pick a dress. and her dad walking her down the aisle. and getting married by my dad (who is a methodist minister). and getting married in the church where we were children. but if her marriage is a lesbian one, then none of these things will happen, irrespective of whether or not the Supreme Court (or whomever) has altered the definition of marriage... but that's something she has no desire to face and so she chooses not to. until she has to. and that will be a series of disappointing days for her when she realizes that "gay marriage" isn't some kind of "easy" fix-all button.
    you mean like people still are chauvinistic pigs
    you mean like since people are still racist

    ooooooh I get so we should let the bad guys win and not fight for what is right because there will always be certain morons in society that wont change their ways.

    No thanks Ill pick the american way and get rid of discrimination and fight bigotry.
    Theres families right now that wouldnt show up to a wedding if their kid didnt marry the right person PERIOD. not enough money, education, race, religion, from the wrong part of town or wrong last name etc etc

    GUESS WE SHOULD OUTLAW ALL MARRIAGE hahahahaha

    Again, see how DUMB that is
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  2. #312
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. the law, in order to define marriage, must discriminate. that is a tautology.
    2. you are just as free to enter into a contract of marriage with the person you want to as the prisoner is. that he wants to marry someone who qualifies and you do not is not inequality before the law.

    both of you are equally restrained and freed in the regulation; it's just that you don't like the regulation. but not liking something is not the same as having a right to alter it.



    as i said, that's not why i entered this debate, and it's not what i've tried to address. nor will you find my answer in any way satisfactory. i wish you would address the point about society v government here.
    So do you agree with the Loving v Virginia ruling? Because if you do, then your position on SSM is quite hypocritical.

    Also, why are you dodging my question? Just answer it, why should the government not allow me to marry?
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  3. #313
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Who said anything about changing society? Society can go ahead and think anything in wants. You can dislike same sex marriage as much as you want. You'd even be free to stand out in public and protest it. All well within your rights. What isn't within your rights is to use government force against another group of people to supress their exercise of their rights and liberties when they themselves have done nothing to infringe upon the rights of others.
    ah. and perhaps you could identify for me the use of government force against homosexuals here? police are interrupting public ceremonies? those ministers who choose to "wed" homosexual couples are being rounded up? if steve calls mike his "husband" will that be considered in any way criminal?

    no. homosexuals are free to live, love, and grow old together. they can have marriage ceremonies, tell everyone they are married, and live their whole life long as a happy couple. the only action being constrained here is the action of the state which is being constrained by the people.

  4. #314
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. the law, in order to define marriage, must discriminate. that is a tautology.
    2. you are just as free to enter into a contract of marriage with the person you want to as the prisoner is. that he wants to marry someone who qualifies and you do not is not inequality before the law.

    both of you are equally restrained and freed in the regulation; it's just that you don't like the regulation. but not liking something is not the same as having a right to alter it.



    as i said, that's not why i entered this debate, and it's not what i've tried to address. nor will you find my answer in any way satisfactory. i wish you would address the point about society v government here.
    all you have to do is apply you random illogical example to race and or gender and a smart person quickly sees how dumb, meaningless and dishonest it is. Its very transparent.

    It reminds me of a little kid getting yelled at for "laying on the floor" and the kid says im not laying on the floor im "laying on the carpet", technically there is some truth in his answer but its submersed in idiocy, arrogance and dishonesty and isnt going to get the results he hoped for.
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  5. #315
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ah. and perhaps you could identify for me the use of government force against homosexuals here?
    The government prevents same sex couples from entering into the marriage contract. Could you really not see that? Government force isn't just limited to the ATF setting fire to a cultist building and watching everyone burn. Government force is ANY force against the rights and liberties of the individual. In some cases, it's legitimized through showing in court that an individual has infringed upon the rights of others. In other cases, it's illegitimate such as using government force against same sex couples thus preventing them from engaging in their right to contract when they themselves have done nothing to infringe upon the rights of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the only action being constrained here is the action of the state which is being constrained by the people.
    BTW, this is not 100% correct. We do not live in a pure democracy, hence the State cannot do everything the People at large want. They can only do that which does not infringe upon the rights of others. Majority rules within minority rights. That's why we're a democratic Republic built on the lawful purposes of upholding the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Last edited by Ikari; 01-03-11 at 10:08 PM.
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    So do you agree with the Loving v Virginia ruling? Because if you do, then your position on SSM is quite hypocritical.
    my position on Loving is similar to my position on Brown or Cooper. the Court made the wrong decision for the right reasons. though with Cooper I suspect a bit of grandiosity and self-promotion, and i wonder if the potentially irreparable damage to federalism was worth it.

    Also, why are you dodging my question? Just answer it, why should the government not allow me to marry?
    if we are going to get into the opinions of cpwill; then they are of two seperate levels. first, why would I vote the way I would should the matter come up on a Ballot and Second, why should the government not issue a marriage certificate for a lesbian couple.

    the second is the easiest; and i believe we have discussed it before. the government shouldn't do so because the people have told it not to, and, in this nation, government is the servant of the people, not the other way around.

    the first is more complicated and unfortunately for you it's straight to the a priori of my religious beliefs. given the option; i would vote against no-fault divorce as well, which ought to give you a hint of just how out of the mainstream i personally am here.
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-03-11 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #317
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ah. and perhaps you could identify for me the use of government force against homosexuals here? police are interrupting public ceremonies? those ministers who choose to "wed" homosexual couples are being rounded up? if steve calls mike his "husband" will that be considered in any way criminal?

    no. homosexuals are free to live, love, and grow old together. they can have marriage ceremonies, tell everyone they are married, and live their whole life long as a happy couple. the only action being constrained here is the action of the state which is being constrained by the people.
    Yep again jut like interracial marriage, minority and women rights. lol Nobody is buying your dishonesty.
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    my position on Loving is similar to my position on Brown or Cooper. the Court made the wrong decision for the right reasons. though with Cooper I suspect a bit of grandiosity and self-promotion, and i wonder if the potentially irreparable damage to federalism was worth it.



    if we are going to get into the opinions of cpwill; then they are of two seperate levels. first, why would I vote the way I would should the matter come up on a Ballot and Second, why should the government not issue a marriage certificate for a lesbian couple.

    the second is the easiest; and i believe we have discussed it before. the government shouldn't do so because the people have told it not to, and in this nation government is the servant of the people, not the other way around. the first is more complicated and unfortunately for you it's straight to the a priori of my religious beliefs. given the option; i would vote against no-fault divorce as well, which ought to give you a hint of just how out of the mainstream i personally am here.
    So basically you are for a pure democracy. You are against the Bill of Rights, and support the ability of 51% of the population to tell 49% of the population that they have no rights.
    Just because the majority of the people are for it, doesn't mean the government should endorse it. That is not how this government was set up, you're opinions should not take away my rights, and the government should protect the rights of minorities.
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  9. #319
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    my position on Loving is similar to my position on Brown or Cooper. the Court made the wrong decision for the right reasons. though with Cooper I suspect a bit of grandiosity and self-promotion, and i wonder if the potentially irreparable damage to federalism was worth it.



    if we are going to get into the opinions of cpwill; then they are of two seperate levels. first, why would I vote the way I would should the matter come up on a Ballot and Second, why should the government not issue a marriage certificate for a lesbian couple.

    the second is the easiest; and i believe we have discussed it before. the government shouldn't do so because the people have told it not to, and in this nation government is the servant of the people, not the other way around. the first is more complicated and unfortunately for you it's straight to the a priori of my religious beliefs. given the option; i would vote against no-fault divorce as well, which ought to give you a hint of just how out of the mainstream i personally am here.
    again just like the people didnt want womens rights, minority rights and interracial marriage.
    Im so glad that MY country luckily doesnt listen to you because it would have never become AMERICA.
    As a matter a fact you and your hypocrisy are also lucky because with out our constitution and what we consider rights you may not be able to practice that religion of yours LMAO

    Oh but Im sure if YOUR rights were discriminated against THAT would be different LMAO
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The government prevents same sex couples from entering into the marriage contract.
    the government does not take the positive action of issuing them a marriage certificate. surely you are not coming out in favor of positive rights?

    BTW, this is not 100% correct. We do not live in a pure democracy, hence the State cannot do everything the People at large want. They can only do that which does not infringe upon the rights of others. Majority rules within minority rights. That's why we're a democratic Republic built on the lawful purposes of upholding the rights and liberties of the individual.
    the Constitutional protections of which you speak do not lend themselves easily to your argument for two reasons:

    1. it is explicitely within the provision of the State Governments to define marriage and to set the preconditions for recieving a license, just as they set preconditions for recieving any other license that they grant.
    2. that Constitution IS the People; specifically it is a supermajority of them.
    3. Powers not reserved for the Federal government are reserved first to the State and then to the people. only powers of the Federal Government are few and enumerated; powers left to the State are of the General Police variety.

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