View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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    109 56.77%
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    62 32.29%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #21
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    US is amongst those countries which is secular. In UK, we have a established religion and institution COE and Protestants playing a role and having a opinion in our laws. They sit in Parliament and can vote/oppose a law if they choose to.

    In UK, I think Gays have nothing to complain about compared to US where they can't even adopt or be recognised as a couple in all states.
    I think US Gays should be lobbying for civil unions and maybe they will pick up more support from the religious in US. Rather than trying to use the term 'marriage'.
    Many people who support same sex marriage here are doing many things to try to get it, but we have come to realize that our biggest hope for getting it the fastest is just continuing to challenge discriminatory/unconstitutional laws in court, such as DOMA and laws that bar gay couples from adopting children from public adoption agencies or through the state.

    In fact, once DOMA goes away/down, it won't matter if there are some states here that won't actually grant marriage licenses to same sex couples, because due to the 14th Amendment's Full Faith and Credit Clause, those states will be forced to legally recognize same sex marriages that are performed in other states.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #22
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I personally think both sides are using it for political gain, just in opposite ways.
    It's a cultural issue. Most republican constitutents constitute a single culture, traditional western european. If the republican party wants to keep it's consitutents it's supposed to represent their needs, wants, and aspirations. Personally, I'm not much impressed with the republican leadership. I feel they have much more in common with their democratic counterparts than their constituents. This would explain the recent revelations about the mrs bush and mrs mcain who've recently voiced support for gay marriage and abortions. Ok, their entitled to their opinions, but aren't they supporting wrong party?

    For the democratic party it's a little more problamatic. The majority of the democratic party constituents are currently upper class whites. They fully support things such as abortion and gay marriage. However, they aren't reproducing their own numbers. Hell, blacks and asians aren't either. The democratic leadership's great hope is the latinos now flooding across our borders. The problem here is they constitute a traditional culture, and one that is often at odds with treasured democratic party principles. Indeed, a large part of why prop 8 passed is because of black christians. Problems, problems.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  3. #23
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Many people who support same sex marriage here are doing many things to try to get it, but we have come to realize that our biggest hope for getting it the fastest is just continuing to challenge discriminatory/unconstitutional laws in court, such as DOMA and laws that bar gay couples from adopting children from public adoption agencies or through the state. In fact, once DOMA goes away/down, it won't matter if there are some states here that won't actually grant marriage licenses to same sex couples, because due to the 14th Amendment's Full Faith and Credit Clause, those states will be forced to legally recognize same sex marriages that are performed in other states.
    You mean by forcing the issue on the american people whether they support it or not. Pity.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  4. #24
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    You mean by forcing the issue on the american people whether they support it or not. Pity.
    By doing what is constitutional, no matter what the just-slightly-a-majority wants. DOMA changes a part of the Constitution, specifically the 14th Amendment's FF&CC to discriminate against a group of people. To be legal, it should have gone through the proper methods and actually became an Amendment to the Constitution (which is normally done through a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress followed by having to be approved by 3/4ths of the states). Congress didn't have the numbers then (and most likely don't have the numbers now) to get this done constitutionally.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #25
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    By doing what is constitutional, no matter what the just-slightly-a-majority wants. DOMA changes a part of the Constitution, specifically the 14th Amendment's FF&CC to discriminate against a group of people. To be legal, it should have gone through the proper methods and actually became an Amendment to the Constitution (which is normally done through a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress followed by having to be approved by 3/4ths of the states). Congress didn't have the numbers then (and most likely don't have the numbers now) to get this done constitutionally.
    Look, I'm familiar with the socialist vision of government to "control" their peoples (for their own good). However, I'm a classical liberal. Like the founders of our nation I feel the people are better at determining their needs, wants, and desires than any "ruling class." Simply put, government should represent the will of the people, not simply use people to support the state. I'm not a fan of etatism. I'll leave that for you liberals/leftists/socialists.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  6. #26
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    You mean by forcing the issue on the american people whether they support it or not. Pity.
    Also, I want to add that interracial marriage was "forced" onto the people in the same manner, when the American people did not want it because of the Loving v. VA ruling. Although most people who are against same sex marriage don't want to acknowledge the fights as similar, they share a lot of similar arguments from those who oppose them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #27
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Look, I'm familiar with the socialist vision of government to "control" their peoples (for their own good). However, I'm a classical liberal. Like the founders of our nation I feel the people are better at determining their needs, wants, and desires than any "ruling class." Simply put, government should represent the will of the people, not simply use people to support the state. I'm not a fan of etatism. I'll leave that for you liberals/leftists/socialists.
    We are given certain rights by the Constitution so that the majority cannot take those rights away from us, because we are a free nation. Government should be secular and not based off of religious beliefs. Even when we are just talking about fair and equal treatment in regards to benefits/rights in relationships, without threat of criminal penalties, the laws should have a rational basis and not be based on religious or any other "beliefs", but rather proven with facts about harm.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #28
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Also, I want to add that interracial marriage was "forced" onto the people in the same manner, when the American people did not want it because of the Loving v. VA ruling. Although most people who are against same sex marriage don't want to acknowledge the fights as similar, they share a lot of similar arguments from those who oppose them.
    Change in societies is best when it comes as a result of better ideas becoming mainstream thought. When you "force" change on a culture you most often get kind of rendering that has occured in america. You are advocating the same kind of situation that occured with abortion some forty years ago. We were all supposed to come "into the fold" with time. It hasn't occured. When government no longer represents the peoples they govern they lose their legitimacy. I believe that is occuring right now in this country.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-01-11 at 12:32 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  9. #29
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Change in societies is best when it comes as a result of better ideas becoming mainstream thought. When you "force" change on a culture you most often get kind of rendering that has occured in america. You are advocating the same kind of situation that occured with abortion some forty years ago. We were all supposed to come "into the fold" with time. It hasn't occured. When government no longer represents the peoples they govern they lose their legitimacy. I believe that is occuring right now in this country.
    No, I am advocating the exact same kind of change that came from the Loving v. VA decision, expanding marriage to include other people. Doing so will not cause harm to any person or potential person (I am pro-life btw). It is simply a change to tradition.

    People will always be fighting about abortion, even if religious people become a minority, because there are plenty of people out there who consider abortion (in most cases) to be taking the life of a child, no matter how a particular higher power may feel about it. Homosexuality is mainly fought because of religion (there are a very small minority who simply find it icky without any religious problems with it, but most without religious convictions against it could care less about whether or not they are allowed to marry).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #30
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Look, I'm familiar with the socialist vision of government to "control" their peoples (for their own good). However, I'm a classical liberal. Like the founders of our nation I feel the people are better at determining their needs, wants, and desires than any "ruling class." Simply put, government should represent the will of the people, not simply use people to support the state. I'm not a fan of etatism. I'll leave that for you liberals/leftists/socialists.
    BTW, it was the founders of this nation that specifically put the legal methods in for how the Constitution was to be Amended. Most of them did not want the citizens to be subject to the tyranny of the majority, especially one that could easily decide to restrict enough rights, including voting rights, to ensure that they remained the "majority".

    And how is a political philosophy concerning social issues that are based off of religious beliefs or moral standings, without any actual evidence that a behavior actually causes harm, not controlling the public for their own good? If it doesn't harm you or society, then the majority has no legal right to restrict it without actually changing the Constitution through the Amendment process set down by our founders.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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