View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #211
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Its not my mind, its the facts. No matter what you quote the facts remain. When you get a marriage license you aren't required to have kids so that's the end to your fantasy that you think holds merit in THIS debate. (GAY marriage)

    Tomorrow I can get married and NEVER have kids so your point is totally moot, you also have a good one
    I'm well aware that you could abuse the right to marry just as many people already do.

    You could also go out and rape someone, that doesn't make it right, that just means you can.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I actually kind of agree with you on raising the legal age to marry. At the very least, I believe that the minimum legal age to get married should be 18. Marriage should not be entered into before a person is legally able to sign the contract themselves, without parental permission.
    Don't quote me but I have a feeling that Jerry was talking about raising the age even higher. But since I'm not a mind reader I'm not sure. Just a feeling....
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    mad Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    This is dishonest IMO but again lets say its true
    If marriage doesnt promote monogamy then to me it further proves that length or relationships is MORE of an invalde argument than it was to begin with
    Invalid in what way? Long term relationships aren't particularly important to humans tho I believe men do seem to benefit from it. I believe there is some research out there to suggest mankind may just be hardwired to sleep with a number of individuals in order to produce offspring. This may or may not be true. I see no reason to doubt the idea tho.

    For whatever reason many of the world's cultures seem to believe long term relationships are important. My best guess would be to raise competent adults. This is an endeavour that does require enormous amounts of time, some 20 years for our paticular culture. Longer in my son's case. He's in his mid-20's and still isn't a fully functioning adult, he's in graduate school. That requires more of my time but that's fine by me because I think it's important for my son to be a success in our culture.
    Next is, in our culture, raising children in marriage already is a non factor, you dont have to nor are required too, so thats not an argument either.
    Not in my particular culture. Yes, in many of the sub-cultures that happen to inhabit this land it isn't......and it's a growing problem.

    I'm now going to tell you far too much about myself. I was an elementary classroom teacher for 10 years. I've spent the last four as a librarian in two small, poor, rural districts in my homeland of northern arkansas.

    In that time I've seen the result of divorce, blended, blasted, hopelessly compromised groupings of individuals and sometimes family members all trying to survive into adulthood. I've seen children living with strangers because their parents simply gave them away. I've seen family groupings whereby single mothers had four or five children, all with different fathers. I can't tell you the number of children being raised by grandparents and even totally unrelated individuals due simply to marriage. I had a child some years back being raised by her grandmother and live in boyfriend, some 20 years junior. The grandmother died in her sleep and the boyfriend/step-father/guy just continued to raise her until he mother got out of prison. By that time he already had another live-in girlfriend. The last I heard of the child she and her sister were with their mother in fort smith arkansas...and she was partying....again. I remember asking a child one time how her father was doing. She looked at me with dead-eyes and said "which one." It shook me down to my soul.

    I go home some nights and I just can't think. I can't feel. I just wonder. I wonder about a lot of things. Maybe it's because I'm one of them. I never knew my father. I had a wonderful adoptive father that my mother managed to run off and then marry a man I now know to have been mentally ill. I've been shot at twice in my life, once by him.

    I dropped out of high school, did a stint in the navy, bumbed around awhile. Did some things I'm still not proud of. Then I did something different. I decided to be a different man than I was. I started by going to work...on time. Things just snowballed on me after that. A house, a wife, a son, responsibilities. I've been married some 30 years now and I've never looked back.

    I'm still saddened just about every day by what I see some "parents" do to their children, but I'm still fighting. My health is fading, but I'm still fighting. I'm not complaining, my life has meaning.

    So, if I seem cranky, obstinate, crusty, it's because I am. If I seem as if I have strong feelings about a number of issues, marriage, child rearing, for instances, it's because I do. If I seem dubious about research that seems to suggest to all contrary previous evidence men and women aren't both vitally important in the raising of children it's because I am.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wow that's a great link. Seriously, a good source.

    Before I comment on the imediat topic at hand, I'd like to footnote this:

    This is a constant I've observed in my own life, that women generally have an unrealistic expectation of marriage, a fantasy their counterpart can't or won't live up to. Some men have unrealistic expectations also, but men just deal with it; women are the sex initiating most divorces in the US and Denmark, not men.

    ***
    To get back on topic, when it comes to the State promoting stable relationships through offering a marriage license, if we're going to change the rules and offer that license to gay couples in the name of equality, why not also include in the same piece of legislation various standards which improve the divorce rate?

    Equality is all well and good, and I'm not saying abandon it, but at the end of the day if you still have a 50% divorce rate, you haven't accomplished anything of lasting value.

    In the same pen stroke we open the door to gays we should support the attributes of successful marriages. One such attribute might be raising the legal marriage age:
    Increasing the age would be fine by me, I'd have no problem with that and think it would be fine, I think it wouldn't work though unless its made 18 with NO exceptions. I only believe that because that's the age our society has picked for everything, voting, dying for your country, getting tried as an adult etc. Only drinking isnt 18.

    Can anyone tell me if there are states that you can be under 18 with permission or a co-signer of sorts?
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Logically it also makes more sense to leave it has marriage.
    Being the optimist that I am I wouldnt be surprsied if gay rights happen within 10 years.
    I don't believe a change really is needed. I honestly believe that we will just get same sex marriage. But I can see the validity of the argument.

    Now, I don't believe that it is a compromise that is likely to be offered, anyway. There are way too many anti-SSM people who want to maintain their ability to be called "married" and keep the gays from getting "their" word. Their own idea of a compromise still includes discrimination, but they don't see it. Civil unions just for one group is still discrimination.

    It really does remind me of that Dr. Suess book about the two groups, one had stars on their bellies and the other didn't. The group with stars felt that they were better than the one's without, until the ones w/o were able to get stars, then they wanted their removed. Eventually, no one knew who had stars originally and who didn't.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    More interesting stuff: http://www.3dca.flcourts.org/Opinions/3D08-3044.pdf

    These reports and studies find that there are no differences in the parenting of homosexuals or the adjustment of their children. These conclusions have been accepted, adopted and ratified by the American Psychological Association, the
    American Psychiatry Association, the American Pediatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Welfare League of America and the National Association of Social Workers. As a result, based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, this Court is satisfied that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise;
    the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    [QUOTE=roguenuke;1059193142]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wow that's a great link. Seriously, a good source.

    Before I comment on the imediat topic at hand, I'd like to footnote this:

    This is a constant I've observed in my own life, that women generally have an unrealistic expectation of marriage, a fantasy their counterpart can't or won't live up to. Some men have unrealistic expectations also, but men just deal with it; women are the sex initiating most divorces in the US and Denmark, not men.[i/QUOTE]

    Even if women do initiate most of the divorces, I don't believe that it makes it the woman's fault or that they are all just not trying to work out their marriage. Sometimes marriages shouldn't work out, i.e. if one is abusive or there is some betrayal that affects the foundation of the marriage.

    I have only seen men initiate the divorces in my family, with the exception being my grandmother, who faced an unwilling-to-change alcoholic in my grandfather (til after the divorce) and an abusive husband (both her and my aunt) in her second marriage. My father initiated the divorce of my parents (he wanted to live in his home state, my mother found a job that provided better requiring a move, and he had at least one mistress). My uncle divorced my aunt because his parents didn't approve of her (of course, they remarried 5 years later and are still married). And my other aunt still hasn't divorced her abusive husband eventhough they've been separated for over 15 years.

    I believe that all divorces depend on the individual and their values, not their gender.

    ***


    I actually kind of agree with you on raising the legal age to marry. At the very least, I believe that the minimum legal age to get married should be 18. Marriage should not be entered into before a person is legally able to sign the contract themselves, without parental permission.
    My father once remarked "it's a damn wonder any marriage last for long. Women go into it thinking they can change their husbands. Men going into it thinking their brides will not change."
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Even if women do initiate most of the divorces, I don't believe that it makes it the woman's fault or that they are all just not trying to work out their marriage. Sometimes marriages shouldn't work out, i.e. if one is abusive or there is some betrayal that affects the foundation of the marriage.
    I didn't see where the source provided said that women initiate most divorces because they're all abused.

    I did see where the study claimed that women initiate most divorces due to unmet expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I believe that all divorces depend on the individual and their values, not their gender.
    It's imposable to discuss individuals in this online setting. Even if we had the resolve to go through billions of personal profiles, we couldn't, as per DebatePolitics.com's rules against exposing personal information, even about yourself, even with your consent.

    So, we have to stick to groups and populations.

    Statistically, the leading cause for divorce in the US is money troubles, not abuse. Even if abuse were the leading cause for divorce, there is no movement to ban divorcing an abusive spouse. There are already laws on the books against abuse, so I don't see what any additional legislation could accomplish.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I actually kind of agree with you on raising the legal age to marry. At the very least, I believe that the minimum legal age to get married should be 18. Marriage should not be entered into before a person is legally able to sign the contract themselves, without parental permission.
    I might support something stronger, say 25, as that age is associated with marriages becoming more resistant to divorce.

    I wouldn't expect an age increase to 25 to piggy-back a gay-marriage law, however. I don't see any politician standing on the steps of a courthouse, in front of a large crowd of gay couples, proclaiming that equality has been achieved...and then sending over half that crowd away because they're now under age to marry.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-02-11 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Don't quote me but I have a feeling that Jerry was talking about raising the age even higher. But since I'm not a mind reader I'm not sure. Just a feeling....
    I don't agree with raising it higher, just because I think every legal ability should be available at the age of majority or it is age discrimination. 18 isn't really an unreasonable age limit to set marriage at, but I don't know how the support would go for that. There still are a lot of people who believe that girls who are pregnant, no matter their age, should get married, preferably to the father of the baby.

    But I don't have any issue with some of his other suggestions either, like requiring marriage counseling and/or financial counseling to get married. I just don't see those things really coming about any time soon.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Invalid in what way? Long term relationships aren't particularly important to humans tho I believe men do seem to benefit from it. I believe there is some research out there to suggest mankind may just be hardwired to sleep with a number of individuals in order to produce offspring. This may or may not be true. I see no reason to doubt the idea tho.

    For whatever reason many of the world's cultures seem to believe long term relationships are important. My best guess would be to raise competent adults. This is an endeavour that does require enormous amounts of time, some 20 years for our paticular culture. Longer in my son's case. He's in his mid-20's and still isn't a fully functioning adult, he's in graduate school. That requires more of my time but that's fine by me because I think it's important for my son to be a success in our culture.

    Not in my particular culture. Yes, in many of the sub-cultures that happen to inhabit this land it isn't......and it's a growing problem.

    I'm now going to tell you far too much about myself. I was an elementary classroom teacher for 10 years. I've spent the last four as a librarian in two small, poor, rural districts in my homeland of northern arkansas.

    In that time I've seen the result of divorce, blended, blasted, hopelessly compromised groupings of individuals and sometimes family members all trying to survive into adulthood. I've seen children living with strangers because their parents simply gave them away. I've seen family groupings whereby single mothers had four or five children, all with different fathers. I can't tell you the number of children being raised by grandparents and even totally unrelated individuals due simply to marriage. I had a child some years back being raised by her grandmother and live in boyfriend, some 20 years junior. The grandmother died in her sleep and the boyfriend/step-father/guy just continued to raise her until he mother got out of prison. By that time he already had another live-in girlfriend. The last I heard of the child she and her sister were with their mother in fort smith arkansas...and she was partying....again. I remember asking a child one time how her father was doing. She looked at me with dead-eyes and said "which one." It shook me down to my soul.

    I go home some nights and I just can't think. I can't feel. I just wonder. I wonder about a lot of things. Maybe it's because I'm one of them. I never knew my father. I had a wonderful adoptive father that my mother managed to run off and then marry a man I now know to have been mentally ill. I've been shot at twice in my life, once by him.

    I dropped out of high school, did a stint in the navy, bumbed around awhile. Did some things I'm still not proud of. Then I did something different. I decided to be a different man than I was. I started by going to work...on time. Things just snowballed on me after that. A house, a wife, a son, responsibilities. I've been married some 30 years now and I've never looked back.

    I'm still saddened just about every day by what I see some "parents" do to their children, but I'm still fighting. My health is fading, but I'm still fighting. I'm not complaining, my life has meaning.

    So, if I seem cranky, obstinate, crusty, it's because I am. If I seem as if I have strong feelings about a number of issues, marriage, child rearing, for instances, it's because I do. If I seem dubious about research that seems to suggest to all contrary previous evidence men and women aren't both vitally important in the raising of children it's because I am.

    Good day to you, sir.
    Wow thats a lot of nothing for the topic at hand. I am sadden by your stories and concerned about society and how people view MARRIAGE in general but all those things are topics about MARRIAGE period, not gay marriage. Start your own thread about how we can improve marriage, family values/unite and you have many on board and a bunch of personal experience to pull from.

    Not to be insensitive about your issues but the FACTS remain that the CURRENT marriage system doesn't factor in stability or relationship length nor are children a factor.

    I don't WANT people getting divorced every year but they CAN and DO, none factor to GAY marriage.
    I can get married tomorrow and never have kids, none factor to GAY marriage.

    If you want to change the rules of marriage or education of the family unit that is FINE by me and a GOOD idea in my opinion. But it still isnt a reason to discriminate against gay marriage at all. Gays are AMERICANS, they are in OUR SOCIETY, they are in OUR FAMILIES. So the things you want to do to improve US you dont leave them behind, you bring them for the ride so we ALL improve.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 01-02-11 at 03:53 PM.
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