View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #201
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    No I get what you want to do, remove it completely. But what I fail to see is if people argue thats discrimination is how to argue against it. I certainly wouldnt argue against them and would see their point.
    But to argue discrimination you have to show that the change is discriminating against someone.

    But the very first question I would ask if I was trying to argue discrimination is WHY was it changed? And any answer that didnt involve "because gays wanted to get married and some religious people cried loud enough to get the law changed" or because "some overly religious people cried so loud the government made a compromise based on them not wanting gays using the term marriage (even though marriage does NOT have to do with religion) so they changed it" would be pretty much dishonest.
    The law regarding marriages, as its currently created, is unconstitutional due to the discrimination it places upon gender that does not meet the required levels of scrutiny to justify such discrimination under the EPC. Therefore, Civil Unions...not marriages...are the more constitutional form of coupling we have in this country. Due to those two fats, coupled with the issue of seperation of church and state and the dual definitions of the word marriage, it is most constitutional and beneficial for the country to reject the unconstitutional form of coupling we currently have and instead focus solely on the constitutional form, leaving the word marriage and that ceremony as something purely within the private sector.

    You can't say anyone is being "Discriminated" against in that. The only thing you could say is that religious people could claim they are being "discriminated against" because they can't have the government recognize their term "marriage" anymore...but the government never dealt with religious marriage anyways in reality, so that's rather weak, and additionally for it to be discrimination it would need to be shown that somehow the government IS recognizing other peoples religious coupling, which it wouldn't be. They could claim its "discrimination" because they're the government won't call it marriage anymore, but again, for it to be discrimination someone else would have to be having it called marriage...that's not the case, no one would be.

    Sure, people could MAKE the argument. They should be laughed at when they do, because there's no actual argument there if you look at the facts and logic.

    What if when blacks wanted to be more 2/3 a man/human the ruling was now NOBDOY will be a man under law, we will all be call patriots now because some white people refuse to call them men, that word is sacred to them, so were are changing the name.
    And as long as "Patriots" had all the same rights amongst everyone, alright. However, this is a poor analogy, as "marriage" has a clear long history mixed with religion that is an issue for the government....such is not the case with "man". But even then, you couldn't argue "discrimination"...not in a constitutional sense. In the above suggestion, EVERYONE would be considered the same with the same abilities under the government....they could call it Kwijibo for all I care, that doesn't mean there's discrimination as a legitimate argument in a lawful sense. You could argue that it is overly complicated for literally no reasonable reason, OR you could argue that its based off of discrimination, but neither of those things are unconstitutional.

    By that I mean...there's nothing in the constitution that says a persons motivation for something can't come about due to discrimination. However, if said persons motivation turns into a law that causes the government to actively discriminate, then there's a problem.

    I know that example is an appeal to emotion and dramatic in ways but Im just doing it to make a point. I couldn't look another american in the eye, especially a gay american and tell them that, yes, making them all civil unions was fair and not discrimination. Thats just my opinion.
    I don't mind the appeal to emotion, or the dramatic way. My issue though is complete and utter inability to understand how you see treating everyone the same way is an example of the government discriminating.

  2. #202
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    I personally agree with everything you are saying Zyplin, I just don't think that it will happen. That would make a good compromise, but I really do think that we are just going to eventually get same sex marriage rather than an entire word change for the whole thing. It is just a lot simpler, administratively speaking and even legally speaking, than just changing the name of the legal institution.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Hey look, this is interesting: Lessons from a Gay Marriage | Psychology Today
    Wow that's a great link. Seriously, a good source.

    Before I comment on the imediat topic at hand, I'd like to footnote this:
    "Women simply expect different things from marriage than men do," says Nissen. "And if they don't get them, they prefer to live alone."
    This is a constant I've observed in my own life, that women generally have an unrealistic expectation of marriage, a fantasy their counterpart can't or won't live up to. Some men have unrealistic expectations also, but men just deal with it; women are the sex initiating most divorces in the US and Denmark, not men.

    ***
    To get back on topic, when it comes to the State promoting stable relationships through offering a marriage license, if we're going to change the rules and offer that license to gay couples in the name of equality, why not also include in the same piece of legislation various standards which improve the divorce rate?

    Equality is all well and good, and I'm not saying abandon it, but at the end of the day if you still have a 50% divorce rate, you haven't accomplished anything of lasting value.

    In the same pen stroke we open the door to gays we should support the attributes of successful marriages. One such attribute might be raising the legal marriage age:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lessons from a Gay Marriage
    ...to wait before tying the knot.....They have also been older on average than newly married heterosexuals.

  4. #204
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Who the hell cares? Keep your god in your church and out of the government. .
    and let Islam conquer our countries, right?

    You have the choice only between the Holy Bible and Quran, "thanks" idiotic "politic" of liberals our countries produce not enough children to replace the people. Only strong Christianity can stop Islam, not fluffy - bunny liberals with their brainless "politic".
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    No need to because it is in fact invalid and meaningless to today's institution of marriage. The FACT that you dont need to have kids to get married or don't need to have them after you get married makes your statement totally irrelevant to the GAY marriage topic.

    Now if you would like to debate your statement in a GENERAL way you are welcome too, I was just pointing out that its meaningless to the GAY marriage topic that's all.
    Well, I could've quoted some SCOTUS for you and given many examples of the utility of marriage in various cultures, but it seems you've made up your mind. So, have a good one

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    But to argue discrimination you have to show that the change is discriminating against someone.



    The law regarding marriages, as its currently created, is unconstitutional due to the discrimination it places upon gender that does not meet the required levels of scrutiny to justify such discrimination under the EPC. Therefore, Civil Unions...not marriages...are the more constitutional form of coupling we have in this country. Due to those two fats, coupled with the issue of seperation of church and state and the dual definitions of the word marriage, it is most constitutional and beneficial for the country to reject the unconstitutional form of coupling we currently have and instead focus solely on the constitutional form, leaving the word marriage and that ceremony as something purely within the private sector.

    You can't say anyone is being "Discriminated" against in that. The only thing you could say is that religious people could claim they are being "discriminated against" because they can't have the government recognize their term "marriage" anymore...but the government never dealt with religious marriage anyways in reality, so that's rather weak, and additionally for it to be discrimination it would need to be shown that somehow the government IS recognizing other peoples religious coupling, which it wouldn't be. They could claim its "discrimination" because they're the government won't call it marriage anymore, but again, for it to be discrimination someone else would have to be having it called marriage...that's not the case, no one would be.

    Sure, people could MAKE the argument. They should be laughed at when they do, because there's no actual argument there if you look at the facts and logic.



    And as long as "Patriots" had all the same rights amongst everyone, alright. However, this is a poor analogy, as "marriage" has a clear long history mixed with religion that is an issue for the government....such is not the case with "man". But even then, you couldn't argue "discrimination"...not in a constitutional sense. In the above suggestion, EVERYONE would be considered the same with the same abilities under the government....they could call it Kwijibo for all I care, that doesn't mean there's discrimination as a legitimate argument in a lawful sense. You could argue that it is overly complicated for literally no reasonable reason, OR you could argue that its based off of discrimination, but neither of those things are unconstitutional.

    By that I mean...there's nothing in the constitution that says a persons motivation for something can't come about due to discrimination. However, if said persons motivation turns into a law that causes the government to actively discriminate, then there's a problem.



    I don't mind the appeal to emotion, or the dramatic way. My issue though is complete and utter inability to understand how you see treating everyone the same way is an example of the government discriminating.
    See THAT is a good argument but Im guessing there would still be lot of people that would argue it and that would call BS. Id be one of them if asked.

    The MAIN motivation to change it would be because people cried they didnt want that term, an already non religius term by law, used to describe gays.

    With that answer, that real answer, I see it as the bad guys winning and yielding to people who want to continue to discriminate.

    See if the change was just brought on for NO reason or ONLY because its unconstitutional then Id buy it but that fact remains the only reason this is suggested is because of religion crying about a term they have no right too. Or more curiously, MOST of the time they don't even care about it as long as its a man and woman. How often do religions cry over OTHER religions getting married or a person getting married by a magistrate or by singing elvis, its VERY rare. If they are being TRUE and not hypocrites and not discriminating those should EQUALLY bother them.

    Again Im not saying that any of this is your stance but I disagree and think they would have a VERY solid leg to stand on for discrimination. It would be because the real motivation for the name change would be to not to allow gays to have that term and I think the majority of the gay population would view it and see it that way. Thats only my opinion I cant speak for them but I see it has a cop out and I think they would too.
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I personally agree with everything you are saying Zyplin, I just don't think that it will happen. That would make a good compromise, but I really do think that we are just going to eventually get same sex marriage rather than an entire word change for the whole thing. It is just a lot simpler, administratively speaking and even legally speaking, than just changing the name of the legal institution.
    IMO, give gays everything they want, and more also.

    We need to allow the stable gay relationships to exist while we enhance the license to promote healthy stable marriages for everyone. I mentioned raising the age limit, as marrying young is strongly associated with divorcing. I also support requiring pre-marital counseling and personal finance counseling, as money fights are the leading cause for divorce.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Well, I could've quoted some SCOTUS for you and given many examples of the utility of marriage in various cultures, but it seems you've made up your mind. So, have a good one
    Its not my mind, its the facts. No matter what you quote the facts remain. When you get a marriage license you aren't required to have kids so that's the end to your fantasy that you think holds merit in THIS debate. (GAY marriage)

    Tomorrow I can get married and NEVER have kids so your point is totally moot, you also have a good one
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  9. #209
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    [QUOTE=Jerry;1059193111]Wow that's a great link. Seriously, a good source.

    Before I comment on the imediat topic at hand, I'd like to footnote this:

    This is a constant I've observed in my own life, that women generally have an unrealistic expectation of marriage, a fantasy their counterpart can't or won't live up to. Some men have unrealistic expectations also, but men just deal with it; women are the sex initiating most divorces in the US and Denmark, not men.[i/QUOTE]

    Even if women do initiate most of the divorces, I don't believe that it makes it the woman's fault or that they are all just not trying to work out their marriage. Sometimes marriages shouldn't work out, i.e. if one is abusive or there is some betrayal that affects the foundation of the marriage.

    I have only seen men initiate the divorces in my family, with the exception being my grandmother, who faced an unwilling-to-change alcoholic in my grandfather (til after the divorce) and an abusive husband (both her and my aunt) in her second marriage. My father initiated the divorce of my parents (he wanted to live in his home state, my mother found a job that provided better requiring a move, and he had at least one mistress). My uncle divorced my aunt because his parents didn't approve of her (of course, they remarried 5 years later and are still married). And my other aunt still hasn't divorced her abusive husband eventhough they've been separated for over 15 years.

    I believe that all divorces depend on the individual and their values, not their gender.

    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    To get back on topic, when it comes to the State promoting stable relationships through offering a marriage license, if we're going to change the rules and offer that license to gay couples in the name of equality, why not also include in the same piece of legislation various standards which improve the divorce rate?

    Equality is all well and good, and I'm not saying abandon it, but at the end of the day if you still have a 50% divorce rate, you haven't accomplished anything of lasting value.

    In the same pen stroke we open the door to gays we should support the attributes of successful marriages. One such attribute might be raising the legal marriage age:
    I actually kind of agree with you on raising the legal age to marry. At the very least, I believe that the minimum legal age to get married should be 18. Marriage should not be entered into before a person is legally able to sign the contract themselves, without parental permission.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I personally agree with everything you are saying Zyplin, I just don't think that it will happen. That would make a good compromise, but I really do think that we are just going to eventually get same sex marriage rather than an entire word change for the whole thing. It is just a lot simpler, administratively speaking and even legally speaking, than just changing the name of the legal institution.
    Logically it also makes more sense to leave it has marriage.
    Being the optimist that I am I wouldnt be surprsied if gay rights happen within 10 years.
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