View Poll Results: What is same sex marriage?

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  • A special right

    109 56.77%
  • Equal protection

    62 32.29%
  • Other

    21 10.94%
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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #181
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You have yet to provide a real source. Try finding some actual studies, not some website that talks about studies. I again point out that FRC has a long history of slanting badly what they present and flat out dishonesty.
    Real studies reside in sources such as questia, a database of scientific studies. I used it as a source when getting my masters. Such sources require money. I'm not doing that for this forum. Instead, why don't you provide sources that contradict the studies referenced in the article. In point of fact why don't you provide any articles, for any of your assertions. All you've done so far is complain about my sources.


    You are still repeating the same mistake. You are still comparing married people to single people. You want results that mean something, compare married gay people in the US with strait married people in the US. Saying unmarried people are more less monogamous than married people, and since gays cannot marry, they are more promiscuous, so gays should not be married because they are too promiscuous is an obviously flawed premise.
    No, I'm comparing attitudes concerning the institution of marriage from the differing perspectives of peoples occupying differing cultures.


    You have shown that relationships outside of marriage are less stable. You have presented an article which is based on a study that was not yet published, and which also uses anecdotes to show something. Your problem is that, in fact, you have presented no actual evidence to back up your point.
    No, I've suggested large numbers of straights have a different view of what constitutes marriage than what large numbers of gays feel constitutes marriage and provided sources that support my assertions. You have provided no supporting references for your assertions at all. Why not? I'm still waiting.

    Then you promote monogamy by the best method...marriage.
    No, that's your assertion. Please provide some support for your belief that marriage changes promiscuous behavior.

    I am not saying marriage will change the gay community in any way other than it does for the strait community. You are expecting gays to do more than you expect straits to have ever done.
    Yes, you are.


    No one has argued otherwise, but this is an argument for gay marriage, to promote those long term stable relationships, and you have yet to counter this argument.
    Marriage does not promote stability in relationships. If you feel it does please provide some support for your contention. I don't believe it exists but you can source something and we can debate the validity of such. Otherwise you just have a "theory."

    Because that is not what I am arguing. I am merely arguing that marriage leads to longer term, more stable relationships. Are you suggesting this is not true?
    Then provide something to support your contention. Otherwise it is mearly wishful thinking.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-02-11 at 02:00 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  2. #182
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you don't think marriage promotes monogamy?
    No, I believe monogamy promotes stability. I believe marriage is a cultural concept used by tradional societies (with variations) as a good vehicle for encouraging the procreation and raising of children. Stable relationships enhance that effect. That's all.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  3. #183
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Since it appears that some wish to discuss gays getting married (again), I figured I'd start another poll about it. A little different spin on this one than I've seen in at least a while, although the argument is common in gay rights threads.

    (Besides, there doesn't seem to be a single poll about it on the first or second page of the Polls section, so I figure I'll change that.)

    Is same sex marriage a special right or equal protection?

    Please explain all answers so we can have a good debate about this.
    Marriage per-se is a Basic Human Right for the raising and socializing of children.

  4. #184
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    As I've already stated "many times" in this thread if you don't see the institution of marriage as requiring monogamy and the new york times article supports this assertion you will not change a culture of promiscuity. In point of fact this article in the family research council makes the same assertion as the new york times article. In regards to hetero v homosexual relationship lengths this article indicates;source



    No, you will not approve of the source but it's a very complete article and they do reference studies and provide references. If you would like I can provide articles referencing studies indicating heterosexual relationships last considerably longer.
    so you have no direct answer to what I said? thanks thats what I thought.
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  5. #185
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    It's a good strategy. When you get those members who aren't here to debate but just post the same debunked crap over and over again and run from threads when they realize they are losing, then by posting the same rebuttals it shows that nobody is taking them seriously anymore and that they are actually going to have to justify their opinions with valid evidence. Most of them just give up and go away, which is fine by me.
    I'm still waiting for you to source some support for your contention that gay marriage is changing gay culture in europe as is your assertion in post #124. You haven't done so as yet. why not?

    You've had time enough to call me "delusional" for making the assertion that men and women are equally important in raising both male and female children. You've had time to send me a snotty pm. (I'll get back to you later on that, I still have to write my lesson plans for next week.)

    Come to think of it why don't you provide some support for your assertion that men and women aren't equally important in the raising of both male and female children. Why don't you provide us all with something to support that conclusion. I'll be here all day.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  6. #186
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Dutch, you have 3 big problems with your posts.

    1) You are now using FRC. They have zero credibility. What you are doing would be akin to me using the Democratic National Committee Website to prove republicans are wrong.

    2) You are still comparing married strait people to unmarried gay people. It's not a valid comparison for what you are trying to do.

    3) You still have not countered the argument that gays being allowed to marry would promote stability, a better environment for children, reduced promiscuity and lower STD rates.
    Common sense at it finest.
    Not to mention the repeated reference to "liberals" or people on the "left". Typical when somebody is in this much denial about one side vs their own and makes inaccurate blanket statements their argument is already lost. They are desperate to validate their opinion while at the same time down play the other side by TYRING to insinuate bias on the OTHER side but its their stance that is obviously bias. You think by now bias righties AND lefties would have learned, that tactic alone NEVER works.
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  7. #187
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    so you have no direct answer to what I said? thanks thats what I thought.
    I don't mean to be rude but in case you hadn't noticed there is only one of me and several of you. I honestly don't know what "direct" answer you wish to what question. Perhaps you could ask the question again. I cannot read your mind any better than I can read my wife's.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  8. #188
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Common sense at it finest.
    Not to mention the repeated reference to "liberals" or people on the "left". Typical when somebody is in this much denial about one side vs their own and makes inaccurate blanket statements their argument is already lost. They are desperate to validate their opinion while at the same time down play the other side by TYRING to insinuate bias on the OTHER side but its their stance that is obviously bias. You think by now bias righties AND lefties would have learned, that tactic alone NEVER works.
    You don't approve of the terms "liberal" or "left?" Why is that? Would you like to debate the use of such terms? I'm willing.

    In regards to bias, yes, at times I see bias. Would you like to debate bias and just what that entails? I'm here for ya'.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  9. #189
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    I'm guilty of posting these threads myself, two of them to be exact. One was locked due to reaching 2000 posts and they are both very entertaining but in the end there are no good reason to stop gay marriage, none as an American. They have all be thoroughly debunked but they are fun discussing but at the same time its kind of unfair, its an argument the other side cant win.
    I know, and I really wasn't trying to downplay your thread or anything. It's just that it wasn't on the first or second page of the Polls section, and some people were hijacking another thread that was getting way off topic onto gay marriage that had nothing to do with gay marriage.

    Besides, sometimes it is good to have a fresh start on topics, so that it isn't a small group of people arguing one point back and forth, devolving the thread into just an argument over one particular part of the whole argument.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #190
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I think you're missing something Centrist.

    What you are suggesting above is not what I'm proposing, but what we have now in some states. Separate but equal type of thing.

    I'm saying remove "marriage" COMPLETELY as a legal term, for ANYONE, and simply make civil union between two people the only government sponsored coupling. Two same sex people? Civil union. Two opposite sex people? Civil Union.

    So if people want they could be "Married" in their church, but not form a civil union under the government to have it legally recognized and be given the extra privileged associated. Conversely, two people could choose to forgo a religious "marriage" but simply go and get a civil union. Or they could be married by a church and sign the documents needed to form a civil union.

    What it essentially does is allow you to have two COMPLETELY separate things...legally, the civil union, privately, the marriage.

    There can be no legitimate claims of discrimination because it would be the status applied to all individuals.
    No I get what you want to do, remove it completely. But what I fail to see is if people argue thats discrimination is how to argue against it. I certainly wouldnt argue against them and would see their point.

    You say "There can be no legitimate claims of discrimination because it would be the status applied to all individuals."

    But the very first question I would ask if I was trying to argue discrimination is WHY was it changed? And any answer that didnt involve "because gays wanted to get married and some religious people cried loud enough to get the law changed" or because "some overly religious people cried so loud the government made a compromise based on them not wanting gays using the term marriage (even though marriage does NOT have to do with religion) so they changed it" would be pretty much dishonest.

    Again, it wouldnt bother "me" so much but im playing devils advocate, if the question is asked "why was it changed" seems a pretty easy path to argue discrimination.
    IMO?

    What if when blacks wanted to be more 2/3 a man/human the ruling was now NOBDOY will be a man under law, we will all be call patriots now because some white people refuse to call them men, that word is sacred to them, so were are changing the name.

    I know that example is an appeal to emotion and dramatic in ways but Im just doing it to make a point. I couldn't look another american in the eye, especially a gay american and tell them that, yes, making them all civil unions was fair and not discrimination. Thats just my opinion.
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