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Thread: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

  1. #161
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, it's quite consistent, when you think about it. Also, it shows repeatablity, one of the key factors that identifies validity in research. I find it interesting that you don't see this, But, of course, you are not anti-gay.
    Consistancy is one thing but virtually identical results is something else. here, contrast the results of your studies with these concerning the length of homosexual relationships. These are very similar findings from different studies, but there are variances among them. That is exactly what one expects from different studies from different researchers in differents countries. One would expect to see variations in studies especially those concerning human behavior. I'm not getting that from many of your studies or the ones I'm familiar with. Just why is that and just why aren't you concerned about that too?

    source

    · In The Sexual Organization of the City, University of Chicago sociologist Edward Laumann argues that "typical gay city inhabitants spend most of their adult lives in 'transactional' relationships, or short-term commitments of less than six months."[5]

    · A study of homosexual men in the Netherlands published in the journal AIDS found that the "duration of steady partnerships" was 1.5 years.[6]

    · In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, Pollak found that "few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners."[7]

    · In Male and Female Homosexuality, Saghir and Robins found that the average male homosexual live-in relationship lasts between two and three years

    Most but not all.
    I'd say the vast majority. You understand that point too. Yet for some reason you don't see a problem. and this after making the same point in an earlier article I offered concerning gays in large cities.


    That's true. The samples are overly representative of whites. However, further research, and I believe it is in the link that I provided, has demonstrated similar findings amongst other ethnicities. This, however, does need to be looked at further.
    Once again, I don't as yet have those links. I agree further research is seriously needed but some of these issues already constitute red flags for sceptics such as myself.


    This is not accurate. Control groups for the studies tend to be based on either biological, intact families, or adoptive intact families, depending on the study.
    Gosh, not according to this article from slate.

    source

    ....The problems don't stop there. A chunk of the gay-parenting literature dates to the 1980s, when researchers drew mostly on children born in heterosexual marriages that dissolved before or after a parent came out. (It was a decade during which studies of divorced- and single-parent families in general multiplied.) With this "transitional generation," it's impossible to disentangle the effects of parents' sexual orientation from those of divorce, of the revelation of homosexuality, and of re-partnering. And whatever impact social stigma had then, it's surely changed somewhat now that same-sex parenthood is more visible.

    Finding suitable control groups is tricky, too. In the past, children of divorced single mothers have often served as the point of comparison, even though once-married lesbian mothers are more likely than their heterosexual peers to be living with new partners. Only in the 1990s have some (small) studies matched up children of homosexual and heterosexual donor-insemination couples. Given the limitations of such shaky cross-sectional research, longitudinal studies would be very useful—especially since there's so much interest in developmental issues, including the evolution of kids' gender identities and sexual orientations when they grow up with gay parents. Almost nobody, however, has tracked gay and lesbian families over time......

    Because most of the research around homosexuality was faulty, especially that of homosexuality and child molestation. As that information has been found to be non-credible, the amount of gays who rear children have gone up. If I recall correctly, there is at least one, if not two longitudinal studies that I did list.
    Well, is this "fact" or "opinion" on your part. If it is a "fact" shouldn't you provide something to support your position or am I to simply accept it as fact......because you say it's so. By the way one or two studies don't constitute "a lot." (that would be an opinion)


    Mostly, but the key factor in their reliability is the repeatability of the studies.
    Yes, about all those findings that indicate lesbian couples raise children who are better adjusted than those raised in homes with a mother and a father. This article suggests the "repeatability" of many of these studies exist for a reason....bias on the part of the researchers themselves. Of course we both know that could never happen. (that sarcasm on my part not fact)

    source
    .....But Stacey's boldest move is to challenge not just the methodology but the fundamental assumption that has informed the bulk of gay parenting studies: the idea that it would be damning to discover that kids of gay parents deviated in any way from kids growing up with moms and dads. As other critics have pointed out, the defensive goal of proving sameness is almost a guarantee of weak science. (The hypothesis that both groups of kids are alike is hard to rule out, but that doesn't mean you've established that there are no differences.) That "heterosexist" bias, Stacey argues, has also encouraged researchers to fudge results, anxiously claiming homogeneity where there's actually some variety. Why, she asks, buy into the view that "differences indicate deficits"?.....




    This is not accurate. I would say that the samples are mostly NOT from urban areas.
    Mostly not?? Is that "fact" or your "opinion?" Could you quantify the term "mostly?" Is there any way we can determine the exact figures? Are there large populations of child rearing lesbians out here in the rural areas of the country?


    Not at all. It demonstrates the repeatability of this hypothesis, a cornerstone of research validity. If you do a test and your hypothesis is proven each time, you can say that your hypothesis is valid. I find it interesting that you would question repeatability.
    No, I do agree with you on the subject of repeatability. What I do question is that these findings "lesbians raise better behaved children, better adjusted children" without men. This alone puts to question all of those studies over the last 100 years or so that indicated children from homes with a mother and father raised better adjusted and better adapted children. This article references a study by norma radin that supports the idea of the positive influences of males in raising children and suggests one mom is just fine, a second mom could be redundant. Just which set of studies is more valid? They would seem to contradict each other. (that would be me pointing out something you already understand)

    source
    ......Can the "second mommy" compensate for the absence of a father? There is substantial evidence that children benefit from having a second sex represented in the home -- not just a second person. Developmental psychologist Norma Radin and her colleagues studied the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren born to adolescent unwed mothers living with their parents. The young children who had positively involved grandfathers displayed more competence than those with an absent or uninvolved grandfather. The presence of the grandmother, on the other hand, did not have a clear-cut impact, suggesting a redundancy between the two forms of maternal influence.(11) Children, especially boys with involved grandfathers, showed less fear, anger, and distress.(12)......
    There are four factors and I believe they were listed at the beginning of my first post.
    Well, I don't know about your four factors but this article referenced a study that suggested some researchers have their own ideas about what constitutes "well adjusted."

    source

    .....There were differences: children raised by parents with SSA showed empathy for "social diversity", were less confined by gender stereotypes (so far so good that's my opinion btw).....and......more likely to have confusion about gender identity, more likely to engage in sexual experimentation and promiscuity, and more likely to explore homosexual behaviour. Stacey and Biblarz characterized these as positive differences, suggesting that same-sex parenting may in fact be superior........(yikes )
    No, it doesn't show that at all. What it shows is that two parents, of any gender or sexual orientation, will rear children equally as well.
    So......according to your statement fathers aren't needed in rearing children. I disagree (my opinion, not fact) This article references another article that make this point;

    source

    In an article entitled, "A Boy and Two Mothers", Toni Heineman reports that in spite of the pretence that two "mothers" were the same as a mother and father, families had to cope with the reality of an absent father.(13)

    Men and women grow up with certain natural expectations about what it means to be a man or a woman. Although activists may claim that these feelings are mere social constructions which they can overcome, in practice nature will always have its way.
    I agree with this one. I believe children need both men and women in order to develop properly. But that's just me, and my opinion.


    So, where are your sources?
    Provided.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  2. #162
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Jump to where CC starts talking about the study, it shouldn't be hard, it takes up several pages.
    I would go look but you're already made me watch rachel maddow. I suppose I'll just havta' "take your word capt crunch "destroyed" the shrumm study. I'm beginning to see a pattern around here, unsupported opinions by liberals around here constitute facts. Good idea, yours perhaps?

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  3. #163
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I would go look but you're already made me watch rachel maddow. I suppose I'll just havta' "take your word capt crunch "destroyed" the shrumm study. I'm beginning to see a pattern around here, unsupported opinions by liberals around here constitute facts. Good idea, yours perhaps?
    CC has consistently given many links to studies on homosexuality and homosexuals raising kids through out the time that I have been around DP. If you don't want to look for the ones in the previously provided link just because you wish to throw a hissy fit about watching Maddow then it is your fault.

    BTW, why did you even watch Maddow? Did you seriously think that CC would use her as a frame of reference for this topic? CC might be a lot of things but stupid is not one of them.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #164
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You can believe what you want, but it is nothing but your opinion. Research does not suppor this opinion. And since this is the case, why do YOU insist on keeping the bar low?
    I never suggested it was anything but my opinion. BTW just for grins and giggles you could supply some of that good old fashioned research you keep telling me about. Or am I simply required to accept your word such research is in point of fact firmly on your side of the argument and is incontravertable.




    Produce the study

    This isn't a study but is an article that supports my contention fathers and mothers are important in the developement of children. I know, call me crazy to actually put forth the idea that boys and girls need positive role models from both genders in order to develop and become well adjusted adults.




    Really? Lets see some research that proves those numbers.
    Those numbers were from the new york times article so many of you objected to. So, I'll give you some wholly new figures to complain about. (you won't like them or the source either but the article refrences all the needed studies)
    source

    MONOGAMY VS. PROMISCUITY: SEXUAL PARTNERS OUTSIDE OF THE RELATIONSHIP
    Lest anyone suffer the illusion that any equivalency between the sexual practices of homosexual relationships and traditional marriage exists, the statistics regarding sexual fidelity within marriage are revealing:

    Married couples

    · A nationally representative survey of 884 men and 1,288 women published in the Journal of Sex Research found that 77 percent of married men and 88 percent of married women had remained faithful to their marriage vows.[9]

    · A 1997 national survey appearing in The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that 75 percent of husbands and 85 percent of wives never had sexual relations outside of marriage.[10]

    · A telephone survey conducted for Parade magazine of 1,049 adults selected to represent the demographic characteristics of the United States found that 81 percent of married men and 85 percent of married women reported that they had never violated their marriage vows.[11]

    Male Homosexuals

    Research indicates that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime:

    · The Dutch study of partnered homosexuals, which was published in the journal AIDS, found that men with a steady partner had an average of eight sexual partners per year.[12]

    · Bell and Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having one thousand or more sex partners.[13]

    · In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in the Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101-500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1,000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than one thousand lifetime sexual partners.[14]

    · A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than one hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than one thousand sexual partners.[15]

    "Commitment" in Male Homosexual Couples

    Even in those homosexual relationships in which the partners consider themselves to be in a committed relationship, the meaning of "committed" or "monogamous" typically means something radically different than in heterosexual marriage.

    · A Canadian study of homosexual men who had been in committed relationships lasting longer than one year found that only 25 percent of those interviewed reported being monogamous." According to study author Barry Adam, "Gay culture allows men to explore different...forms of relationships besides the monogamy coveted by heterosexuals."[16]

    · The Handbook of Family Diversity reported a study in which "many self-described 'monogamous' couples reported an average of three to five partners in the past year. Blasband and Peplau (1985) observed a similar pattern."[17]

    · In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that, in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years:

    Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.[18]
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-02-11 at 08:59 AM.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    CC has consistently given many links to studies on homosexuality and homosexuals raising kids through out the time that I have been around DP. If you don't want to look for the ones in the previously provided link just because you wish to throw a hissy fit about watching Maddow then it is your fault.
    In point of fact tonight he has provided old links that do not function. I believe he will, eventually provide such but not as yet.

    BTW, why did you even watch Maddow? Did you seriously think that CC would use her as a frame of reference for this topic? CC might be a lot of things but stupid is not one of them.
    Your star linked me to it. The link that was supposed to provide evidence of capn crunch "destroying" the shumm study went directly to a youtube post of a rachel maddow show. Silly me I simply watched the damn video. I never claimed capn crunch is stupid, arrogant maybe, intolerant of others that do not share his views, perhaps even a touch high-handed but not stupid. (I mean that in the very best of ways.)
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  6. #166
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Other... equal penalty.. If straight people have a right to get married and the issues involved with that (good and bad) then gay should have the same right.
    PeteEU

  7. #167
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I believe children need both men and women in order to develop properly. But that's just me, and my opinion.
    Evidence and reality prove your opinion wrong.

    I wonder what you call it when you hold to an erroneous belief in the face of evidence to the contrary?

    Oh that's right! It's called a delusion!

  8. #168
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Those numbers were from the new york times article so many of you objected to. So, I'll give you some wholly new figures to complain about. (you won't like them or the source either but the article refrences all the needed studies)[/FONT][/SIZE]
    source
    So once again you don't compare unmarried homosexual couples to unmarried heterosexual couples, you compare unmarried homosexual couples to married heterosexual couples. You really don't see the obvious flaw in doing that?

  9. #169
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Provided.
    Can you provide some unbiased, scientific studies please? I was interested in reading what I thought was going to be accredited research supporting your side. I clicked on one link, and it took me to the Family Research Council, and another took me to Mercatornet. I'm not interested in reading opinions, but facts, and these two sources are about as unscientific and biased as you can get (and wasn't the Family Research Council actually listed as a hate group this year?) The Slate article was a good start, but it's 6 years old, and with all the new unbiased scientific and psychiatric evidence coming out over the last few years that shows support for same sex couples and child rearing, I am looking for something reputable that supports the other side's arguments.

  10. #170
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    Re: Same sex marriage: what is it really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    ...(and wasn't the Family Research Council actually listed as a hate group this year?)
    Yup. For spreading myths and disinformation about gays and lesbians.

    Dutch must be getting desparate. Maybe next he will start posting info from the KKK on blacks and from the Neo Nazis on Jews.

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