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Is founding fatherism a religion?

Is founding fatherism a religion?


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Oh, I would certainly not say there was anything wrong with delving into the why's and wherefore's of the FF positions. Personally I've found it to be fascinating research, digging into why they viewed things they way they did, and how they ended up with what they ended up with.

My chief point is that of exercising great caution in "playing fast and loose" with the Constitution. It's purpose is to limit government, and really limited government was practically the sine qua non of this country's founding and its greatness. If govt's limits are not rather hard-set and held in high respect, things can get very loose in a hurry.... leading to unlimited government.
I have a huge problem with government that is not strictly limited. It tends to lead to authoritarianism if not totalitarianism.

My respect for the Constitution and the original intent of the Founders flows chiefly from my rational and sensible fear of unlimited government, not from a religious-like reverence of the men themselves. To me, the more we treat the Constitution as something fluid and easily changeable, the less likely we are to maintain the ideal of limited government.

I know Goshin, you are one of the more reasonable people on this forum. However, many here use the FF's as if it was some sort of magical talisman against thought. There are quite a few posts in this very thread that display that type of lack of thought, but I would probably run afoul of the rules to point them out specifically.
 
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Whether you realize it or not, slavery is very much alive today. Workers have to do what demanding bosses tell them or lose their jobs. Of course they can quit and find another job but they'll still have to please the new boss. Maybe not as compelling as whips or beatings but just as effective.

One way or another everyone works for a demanding boss, and bosses have their bosses all the way up to CEOs. Only the retired and SS recipients are exempt.

ricksfolly

That's not slavery. If you are going to use slavery, at least use the black market version, for Pete's sake. You're just defiling the hardship of real slavery.
 
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I think you missed the point of my reply, so I will restate. If our culture was suddenly so different that for some reason slavery was deemed ok, we would likely have a different perspective on the issue since we are a part of that culture and it would require a lot of people to change their views. People always go "that will never happen to me" but if that many people change, then its statistically likely that it could happen to us as well.

However, if I retained my current perspective, I would do my best to be a force for what I believed was right, which I would not advocate for slavery or honor killings. In fact I think such cultures are inferior to our current one and we can see that from a basis of looking at harm. So in essence, I think a great many things I find immoral should not be permitted (and some things I find immoral should be permitted because it has been shown that restricting them can be harmful to society and I have no wish to cause harm). However, my view on what should or should not be permitted has very little to do with the constitution or the philosophy that it was derived from.

It probably is in some sense an absolute morality (as I see my beliefs to be completely right (or else I would believe in something else)), but its different from the philosophical foundations of the constitution, but has a lot in common with it.

Also, it should be obvious to you (or maybe not since you went immediately to an extreme either out of ignorance or as a debate tactic, I am not sure which), that when I made that comment I was not thinking of slavery, but more mundane matters. Obviously, if one goes to an extreme, the calculation becomes different, but I also see it as dishonest to equate slavery or honor killings with something more mundane like a popular dislike of prostitution or a majority view on something like health care. There is a huge difference between normal stuff and the extreme stuff of course.
Maybe you should think about it a little more before making a general statement such as you did. You implied that whatever the majority wanted is how it should be.

ricksfolly compares normal employment to slavery so, appearently, some folks in the USA do not consider slavery such a bad thing.

I find the idea of mob rule to be abhorrent.

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People tend to forget that the Founding Fathers had disagreements just as big, some even larger, than the one's anyone on the forum has with anyone else. The Constitution is literally a hodgepodge of just about everyone who attended the convention ideas, heck several Founding Fathers didn't even attend the Constitutional Convention because they disagreed so much with even the idea of changing the government from the Articles of Confederation.

If anyone here knows Patrick Henry he's the one who gave the famous speech before the Virginia assembly before they voted whether to mobilize the militia against the British, and therefore send them to war. His speech is the one which ends with that famous line "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" He refused to attend the Convention, likening as a step towards Monarchy in the United States.

Then you have someone like Alexander Hamilton, who while at the convention advocated for the complete dissolution of all the states and the total concentration of government in the capitol. That doesn't sound very much like something a Founding Father would say, but its true.
Rhode Island refused to even sent any delegates to the convention and its acceptance by the state was basically forced upon it by the others.

When someone says "I agree with the Founding Fathers" as if they all shared the same opinion, it really shows off their lack of knowledge about history. The damn convention lasted for almost SIX MONTHS, now I know they didn't have MS Word back then but it didn't take that long to write the thing, there was a lot of back and forth about exactly what would be done.
 
People tend to forget that the Founding Fathers had disagreements just as big, some even larger, than the one's anyone on the forum has with anyone else. The Constitution is literally a hodgepodge of just about everyone who attended the convention ideas, heck several Founding Fathers didn't even attend the Constitutional Convention because they disagreed so much with even the idea of changing the government from the Articles of Confederation.

If anyone here knows Patrick Henry he's the one who gave the famous speech before the Virginia assembly before they voted whether to mobilize the militia against the British, and therefore send them to war. His speech is the one which ends with that famous line "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" He refused to attend the Convention, likening as a step towards Monarchy in the United States.

Then you have someone like Alexander Hamilton, who while at the convention advocated for the complete dissolution of all the states and the total concentration of government in the capitol. That doesn't sound very much like something a Founding Father would say, but its true.
Rhode Island refused to even sent any delegates to the convention and its acceptance by the state was basically forced upon it by the others.

When someone says "I agree with the Founding Fathers" as if they all shared the same opinion, it really shows off their lack of knowledge about history. The damn convention lasted for almost SIX MONTHS, now I know they didn't have MS Word back then but it didn't take that long to write the thing, there was a lot of back and forth about exactly what would be done.

Yes, there were things on which some of them disagreed strongly. Despite this, they managed to reach a compromise on most issues, a consensus of sorts, in writing the Constitution.

There are some issues on which there was much disagreement, but most of those that ended up in the Constitution involved some level of consensus, or at least majority.

If I propose that a certain portion of the Constitution or BoR means "X" because this is what ten Founders had to say about what they meant by it.... then instead of telling me that the Founders don't count because they disagreed with one another, refute me by demonstrating that the FF's were not in consensus on the matter. Find a similar number of FF's that disagreed with my position and you will have negated my argument. Simply telling me that the FF's disagreed with each other on many things does not prove that they didn't agree on a specific point.

When it comes to Constitutional interpretation, what the large majority of FF's say they intended by it IS what it was ORIGINALLY intended to mean. If you don't like that or don't think it applies to modern life anymore, there's this process called AMENDMENT.

Pardon my emphasis. I am passionate on this subject, because I believe it is a respect for the strict letter of the Constitution that keeps us from the horror that is unlimited government... as it was intended to.
 
Maybe you should think about it a little more before making a general statement such as you did. You implied that whatever the majority wanted is how it should be.

ricksfolly compares normal employment to slavery so, appearently, some folks in the USA do not consider slavery such a bad thing.

I find the idea of mob rule to be abhorrent.

.

Or maybe you shouldn't minigodwin yourself and discuss things honestly and with good faith.
 
Yes, there were things on which some of them disagreed strongly. Despite this, they managed to reach a compromise on most issues, a consensus of sorts, in writing the Constitution.

There are some issues on which there was much disagreement, but most of those that ended up in the Constitution involved some level of consensus, or at least majority.

If I propose that a certain portion of the Constitution or BoR means "X" because this is what ten Founders had to say about what they meant by it.... then instead of telling me that the Founders don't count because they disagreed with one another, refute me by demonstrating that the FF's were not in consensus on the matter. Find a similar number of FF's that disagreed with my position and you will have negated my argument. Simply telling me that the FF's disagreed with each other on many things does not prove that they didn't agree on a specific point.

When it comes to Constitutional interpretation, what the large majority of FF's say they intended by it IS what it was ORIGINALLY intended to mean. If you don't like that or don't think it applies to modern life anymore, there's this process called AMENDMENT.

Pardon my emphasis. I am passionate on this subject, because I believe it is a respect for the strict letter of the Constitution that keeps us from the horror that is unlimited government... as it was intended to.

Well there's the issue I think of how you define a "Founding Father" people like Patrick Henry for example had a big role to play, but never actually signed or attended the signed of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitutional Convention. There's also far more to the founding of this country than those two documents, there's also the Articles of Confederation, along with the paper of the First Continental Congress, and the actions and resolutions of each state government. While its certainly easy to say some did more than others, or more accurately that their actions had more lasting effect, its hard to define a line as to who is and isn't a Founding Father. You also have other things like "Marbury v. Madison" which arguably were just as important, and had just as big of an impact, as the decisions made during and right after the Revolutionary War, should we consider those men Founding Fathers?

One quality I think most of the Founding Fathers shared however is their ability to compromise and accept that the decisions they reached, although not perfect in their eyes, would receive their personal full support.

However given the obvious amount of differences amongst the individuals most frequently called the Founding Fathers, and the fact that it took over 4 years after the end of the war, 13 since the official beginning of the country to write a document as a short as the Constitution should be testimony enough to the extreme difficulty of that task.

I take the opinion that the original intent of each Founding Father, along with their opinions on what each phrase in the Constitution specifically meant, are entirely meaningless from the perspective of legally deciding what the Constitution means. If you look at the earliest Constitutional issues, again like Marbury v. Madison, the government, which included many Founding Fathers such as Jefferson who was President at that time, accepted the decision and authority of the SCOTUS to define the meaning of the Constitution, despite the fact that none of those judges were writers or signers of that document.

The original writers who were still alive, active, in government, allowed a group of men who had nothing to do with the writing of the Constitution decide what its meaning was. Thomas Jefferson was the loudest opponent of the Marbury v. Madison decision, but even though he was President he didn't attempt to use that office to overrule that decision. So I take that acceptance and following of that decision, although unhappily in some cases, to mean the Founding Fathers have given authority of interpretation to the SCOTUS. And its been that way ever sense.

So ultimately you had a group of men who had a number of important disagreements signing a document which they couldn't even all agree on the meaning of each portion in the first place. Someone or something had to be the final authority on what the Constitution said, otherwise there would be no way the country would stay together because the delegate from Virgina told his state legislature it meant one thing and the guy from Georgia said something else. What could they do, convene a Constitutional Congress every time there was an issue? No, to impose order and rule of law upon the country only ONE institution had to have authority, and the SCOTUS was the best choice.

You can't say "I'm going along with what the Founding Fathers said" because they have multiple opinions, the SCOTUS being one body has one opinion and therefore is the better choice to follow and be given authority to make these kind of decisions both then and now.
 
Or maybe you shouldn't minigodwin yourself and discuss things honestly and with good faith.
You made the satement. I smiply wondered if you really believed it.

BTW, did you make up the minigodwin term all by yourself?

.
 
Well there's the issue I think of how you define a "Founding Father" people like Patrick Henry for example had a big role to play, but never actually signed or attended the signed of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitutional Convention. There's also far more to the founding of this country than those two documents, there's also the Articles of Confederation, along with the paper of the First Continental Congress, and the actions and resolutions of each state government. While its certainly easy to say some did more than others, or more accurately that their actions had more lasting effect, its hard to define a line as to who is and isn't a Founding Father. You also have other things like "Marbury v. Madison" which arguably were just as important, and had just as big of an impact, as the decisions made during and right after the Revolutionary War, should we consider those men Founding Fathers?

One quality I think most of the Founding Fathers shared however is their ability to compromise and accept that the decisions they reached, although not perfect in their eyes, would receive their personal full support.

However given the obvious amount of differences amongst the individuals most frequently called the Founding Fathers, and the fact that it took over 4 years after the end of the war, 13 since the official beginning of the country to write a document as a short as the Constitution should be testimony enough to the extreme difficulty of that task.

I take the opinion that the original intent of each Founding Father, along with their opinions on what each phrase in the Constitution specifically meant, are entirely meaningless from the perspective of legally deciding what the Constitution means. If you look at the earliest Constitutional issues, again like Marbury v. Madison, the government, which included many Founding Fathers such as Jefferson who was President at that time, accepted the decision and authority of the SCOTUS to define the meaning of the Constitution, despite the fact that none of those judges were writers or signers of that document.

The original writers who were still alive, active, in government, allowed a group of men who had nothing to do with the writing of the Constitution decide what its meaning was. Thomas Jefferson was the loudest opponent of the Marbury v. Madison decision, but even though he was President he didn't attempt to use that office to overrule that decision. So I take that acceptance and following of that decision, although unhappily in some cases, to mean the Founding Fathers have given authority of interpretation to the SCOTUS. And its been that way ever sense.

So ultimately you had a group of men who had a number of important disagreements signing a document which they couldn't even all agree on the meaning of each portion in the first place. Someone or something had to be the final authority on what the Constitution said, otherwise there would be no way the country would stay together because the delegate from Virgina told his state legislature it meant one thing and the guy from Georgia said something else. What could they do, convene a Constitutional Congress every time there was an issue? No, to impose order and rule of law upon the country only ONE institution had to have authority, and the SCOTUS was the best choice.

You can't say "I'm going along with what the Founding Fathers said" because they have multiple opinions, the SCOTUS being one body has one opinion and therefore is the better choice to follow and be given authority to make these kind of decisions both then and now.


Lord.

SCOTUS at one time issued rulings supporting slavery. Later it issued rulings supporting "seperate-but-equal". SCOTUS is hardly perfect... SCOTUS is political, just not AS political as the House.

Neither were the FF's. They compromised on the slavery issue out of necessity... that has since been put right via Amendment. Sufferage for all citizens has been put in via Amendment.

You don't like what's in the Constitution, you Amend it. You don't reinterpret it entirely out of the original meaning.

I'm going to have to just agree to disagree with some of you. I intend to continue using the FF's words as a guide to original intent where there are questions of "interpretation". If the FF's were so full of disagreement, then you should find it easy to refute my argument by quoting a similar # of FF's with different views.

A Constitution that doesn't mean what it says is about as worthless as a fraudulent check. We NEED those "hard-shell limits" to keep government in its proper boundaries.
 
Lord.

SCOTUS at one time issued rulings supporting slavery. Later it issued rulings supporting "seperate-but-equal". SCOTUS is hardly perfect... SCOTUS is political, just not AS political as the House.

Neither were the FF's. They compromised on the slavery issue out of necessity... that has since been put right via Amendment. Sufferage for all citizens has been put in via Amendment.

You don't like what's in the Constitution, you Amend it. You don't reinterpret it entirely out of the original meaning.

I'm going to have to just agree to disagree with some of you. I intend to continue using the FF's words as a guide to original intent where there are questions of "interpretation". If the FF's were so full of disagreement, then you should find it easy to refute my argument by quoting a similar # of FF's with different views.

A Constitution that doesn't mean what it says is about as worthless as a fraudulent check. We NEED those "hard-shell limits" to keep government in its proper boundaries.

I don't claim to be an expert on the Constitution or the Founding Fathers, but there's the undeniable problem of having more than one authority on an issue. I have no doubt the founding fathers agreed on many things, but there's no way you can expect them all to agree on everything. And just a little research showed they disagreed on extremely important issues for example going back to Marbury vs. Madison which gave the SCOTUS the power to define the meaning of the Constitution.

Alexander Hamilton had this to say "If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their will to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It, therefore, belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, the intention of the people to the intention of their agents"
By the way he signed the Constitution, and here's he's say he has no power or authority to decide its meaning even though he helped write the thing. And by virtue of saying he has no power or authority to decide its meaning also means its meaning is not set in stone, otherwise there would be no deciding needed. So in the case of at least this Founding Father, he disagrees with you.

Whereas Thomas Jefferson said it "placing us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

So who are we supposed to go with? Is there a way to jduge one Founder Father has having an opinion as better than the other? Or more important than the other? There's no way to rely just on the Founding Fathers, who have contradicting opinions, to decide the meaning of the Constitution. The only way to do it is to have ONE authority, even it if disagrees with itself every now and then, because its far more reliable and consistant and unlike the Founding Fathers, who are now dead, can makes judgment on things which the Founding Fathers never addressed.
 
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You made the satement. I smiply wondered if you really believed it.

BTW, did you make up the minigodwin term all by yourself?

.

I made the statement within what I was assuming a context of common sense. You went way out there.
 
Funny thing..... I happen to be in a waiting room earlier, and they had NPR on. apparently this is the topic du jour for the left....



See I think many on the left view the USC as an obstacle, and this sort of talk they have been engaged in. kinda leads me to think I am right.
 
I intend to continue using the FF's words as a guide to original intent where there are questions of "interpretation". If the FF's were so full of disagreement, then you should find it easy to refute my argument by quoting a similar # of FF's with different views.

So I showed you two Founding Fathers with totally different opinoins on who should determine the meaning of the Constitution. One of them, Alexander Hamilton, helped WRITE the thing and he thinks he should no authority to decide its meaning.

So no response? I mean you have two cheer leaders thanking every one of your posts, you don't want to let them down?
 
Fundamentally, there are two positions that can be taken.

1. The Constitution is the law of the land as written.

2. It isn't.

If you take position 1, then determining what the Constitution, as written, means is a matter of reading it literally. Where there is dispute, what the people who wrote it said about it trumps modern interpretation.

If you take position 2, you think modern re-interpretations are the thing, perhaps even if they turn the Original Intent upside down and inside out.

The problem with position 2 is that the Constitution no longer serves as a hard-wired check on government power, and you end up with "government that can do ANYTHING, as long as 276 of the 550 people who run the country agree on it."

I prefer to stick as closely as possible to what the Founders wrote, and where there is dispute to consider their other writings to determine what they meant. Any other course can lead to "anything goes".

Actually from a legal perspective it doesn't matter what the people who wrote it said. All that matters is what was passed into law, and the meanings of those words at the time it was written.

All this talk of interpreting the constitution based on what those who wrote it said outside of what was legally passed reminds me somewhat of the Euthyphro Dilemma posed by Socrates, in that the many Gods do not always agree, and in fact often vehemently disagree. If you want to determine what God holds to be pious it's made significantly more difficult when there are multiple Gods.

Just my $0.02
 
Funny thing..... I happen to be in a waiting room earlier, and they had NPR on. apparently this is the topic du jour for the left....



See I think many on the left view the USC as an obstacle, and this sort of talk they have been engaged in. kinda leads me to think I am right.

i also listen to NPR a great deal and had not heard any such thing. Do you have a link to this story or discussion?

Again, I see many on the right confusing progressive scorn for the right trying to claim their view of the Constitution as their own with scorn for the document itself. And I think - for some - that confusion is deliberate and intentional and a blatant attempt to attack progressives.
 
So I showed you two Founding Fathers with totally different opinoins on who should determine the meaning of the Constitution. One of them, Alexander Hamilton, helped WRITE the thing and he thinks he should no authority to decide its meaning.

So no response? I mean you have two cheer leaders thanking every one of your posts, you don't want to let them down?

I believe the words of Paul Simon in THE BOXER apply here

"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"


I also have posted such things and the result is the chirping of crickets in a distant forest.
 
I think the Founders were no more genius than anyone alive today. They were men who were faced with forming a new government and did as any would, burrowed from the philosopers of the past. Most of their ideas were not their own unique creations, but as in all studies, continuations of the work of others. They were fallible and we all know that. They made mistakes as any would in their place, but they deserve great respect for having the courage and fortitude to fight for the freedom of their nation from tyranny. In as much, that does not call for treating them as Gods, but that we should do as they did and build on what they started to continuously improve government.
 
i also listen to NPR a great deal and had not heard any such thing. Do you have a link to this story or discussion?

Again, I see many on the right confusing progressive scorn for the right trying to claim their view of the Constitution as their own with scorn for the document itself. And I think - for some - that confusion is deliberate and intentional and a blatant attempt to attack progressives.



Nope I don't. And I won't waste my time looking for it. you are free to find it on your own.



What I will say your scorn is for the Constitution, that is clear. It's an obstacle for you statism. and it's all too transparent to see....


Publishing Company Under Fire for Putting Warning Label on Constitution - FoxNews.com


Mind you, you must hold the document in contempt given the nonesense about seeing a right to abortion in thier but not the right to a firearm....

Or that you hold the document to be a "living document" subject to the whim of any idiot liberal with a feel good idiotic idea..


no my friend, you don't respect or value the USC like we do, and it is a concerted effort from you liberals (not all, just the most hack type ones) to devalue the document that is the very foundation of my great nation.
 
I see many on the right confusing progressive scorn for the right trying to claim their view of the Constitution as their own with scorn for the document itself.

I agree with this absolutely. It is a mistake that many make to think that only their view is valid.
 
I believe the words of Paul Simon in THE BOXER apply here

"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"


I also have posted such things and the result is the chirping of crickets in a distant forest.


Well pardon me. I sometimes get tired of beating my head against brick walls and go do something else for a while.
 
Nope I don't. And I won't waste my time looking for it. you are free to find it on your own.



What I will say your scorn is for the Constitution, that is clear. It's an obstacle for you statism. and it's all too transparent to see....


Publishing Company Under Fire for Putting Warning Label on Constitution - FoxNews.com


Mind you, you must hold the document in contempt given the nonesense about seeing a right to abortion in thier but not the right to a firearm....

Or that you hold the document to be a "living document" subject to the whim of any idiot liberal with a feel good idiotic idea..


no my friend, you don't respect or value the USC like we do, and it is a concerted effort from you liberals (not all, just the most hack type ones) to devalue the document that is the very foundation of my great nation.
1- I love the Constitution.
2- Statism? So you are now a converted anarchist? The last time I looked we both valued both a society with a government and citizens with freedom. I hope you have not changed into an anarchist.
3- Abortion????? And what did I say about that????
4- You sound like an 9th grade girl in school lunch room screaming "I love him more than you do and he's mine"
 
So I showed you two Founding Fathers with totally different opinoins on who should determine the meaning of the Constitution. One of them, Alexander Hamilton, helped WRITE the thing and he thinks he should no authority to decide its meaning.

So no response? I mean you have two cheer leaders thanking every one of your posts, you don't want to let them down?


Pardon my tardiness. As you requested....
Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the
Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages
who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean
to be masters."

Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves
back to the time when the Constitution was adopted,
recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it,
[instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to
William Johnson)
 
Sometimes yes, but humans are instinctive civilization builders. Societies will muddle through and in some ways be better and in some ways be worse, than our country.

But at what cost in the interim?

There will always be monsters, regardless on how we come down on the founding father question. However, this does bring up an interesting way to show my point about belief. I have seen several people here say (to paraphrase) "I believe the constitution should be interpreted a certain way because I believe that certain things are important". Basically saying that they have certain beliefs and they want the constitution to reflect those beliefs. This is something I have seen people from all labels write. Ultimately, it is about belief and the strongest belief winning. Extremist muslims are another example of this. Every set of beliefs has its use, benefits, and problems and often beliefs that work well in certain scenarios do not work well in others.
The end result of this fundamental truth is that there are going to be bad people no matter what happens or how we interpret legal documents. What we are trumps what we believe. I have yet to see someone fight for a philosophy or point of view that they think is fundamentally bad for themselves and society (but maybe only one if they are exceptionally good or evil).

It is also for this very reason that we should stick to what the FF's said about the things that they passed in the Constitution. It provides a way in which reinterpretation cannot be made so that it "fits" a person/group of persons beliefs.

If a majority feels this way, then it is only right that this is the direction civilization turns.

As the Constitution is based on individual freedoms then no, it should not be the direction that the majority of civilization should go. Other wise you just have mob rule.
 
This is largely how I see it. The founding fathers had many ideas I happen to agree with (which means I believe that had many good ideas ;)). However, the point of this thread, which it seems that a LARGE number of people have missed is that debating ideas is good, but fundamentalism (meaning the attitude of "if jefferson or some other ff said it, its good" without examination of the idea itself) is wrong and is what I deemed to be founding fatherism for the purpose of this thread.

A lot of people here did not bother to understand the thread and figured i was some sort of attack on the whole thing. But you can't fault them for their limited view on things I guess.

I agree with you here.

Thing though is that 9.5 times outta 10 I had already examined the idea of what they said to myself. I had already decided that the idea that they had was a good idea or a bad idea before I even post. Interestingly enough when it comes to discussions of FF's I have always posted in threads where the ideas that the FF's had coincide with my own ideas. (as such, to me they are right and good) about the only exception to this has been threads on slavery....of course even then I just don't mention the FF's as thier beliefs and mine defer on that subject.
 
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