View Poll Results: Is founding fatherism a religion?

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Thread: Is founding fatherism a religion?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I disagree with the idea of the constitution as the law of the land requiring that it be interpreted one way. It is perfectly acceptable for it to be the law but have some discussion about the exactness given that each of the founding fathers had their own opinions, so there was never an "original intent" even from the very beginning. It is precisely this fantasy that there was an original intent, even though the constitution was largely an example of compromise, that I wonder if the notion of original intent is fantasy more than reality.
    Yes, the Constitution was a compromise document, but in most cases Original Intent is not difficult to determine. For most issues the C addresses there was something like consensus on what they meant by what they wrote and signed.

    If the C needs changed, there's a process called Amendment. Happy Amending.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yes, the Constitution was a compromise document, but in most cases Original Intent is not difficult to determine. For most issues the C addresses there was something like consensus on what they meant by what they wrote and signed.

    If the C needs changed, there's a process called Amendment. Happy Amending.
    Which completely avoids the point I am bringing up, so I will restate. Even from the very beginning there was a variety of opinions on the meaning and interpretation of the constitution. Why should people selectively look at the founding fathers they agree with and go "thats the original purpose!" The whole matter is so dishonest, that it approaches a level of silliness that we may as well call it a made up religion

    Because, at this point, all I can see is people pushing their own personal biases onto history and looking for the bits they like and ignoring the rest.

    Personally, I am so disgusted with the whole business that I think its better to discount them entirely, that way, at least I am being the honest person about my intentions in the discussion.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-01-11 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Which completely avoids the point I am bringing up, so I will restate. Even from the very beginning there was a variety of opinions on the meaning and interpretation of the constitution. Why should people selectively look at the founding fathers they agree with and go "thats the original purpose!" The whole matter is so dishonest, that it approaches a level of silliness that we may as well call it a made up religion

    Because, at this point, all I can see is people pushing their own personal biases onto history and looking for the bits they like and ignoring the rest.

    Personally, I am so disgusted with the whole business that I think its better to discount them entirely, that way, at least I am being the honest person about my intentions in the discussion.
    No, you're just trying to get the Constitution to say what you want it to say.

    If you think that there are parts of the FF's that disagreed and they are being ignored then you can quite easily find out what they say about <insert subject here> and post any dissenting opinions that they had. Force the people that are using the FF's for thier cause to consider what other FF's had to say on the subject. That is after all what debate is all about.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Which completely avoids the point I am bringing up, so I will restate. Even from the very beginning there was a variety of opinions on the meaning and interpretation of the constitution. Why should people selectively look at the founding fathers they agree with and go "thats the original purpose!" The whole matter is so dishonest, that it approaches a level of silliness that we may as well call it a made up religion

    Because, at this point, all I can see is people pushing their own personal biases onto history and looking for the bits they like and ignoring the rest.

    Personally, I am so disgusted with the whole business that I think its better to discount them entirely, that way, at least I am being the honest person about my intentions in the discussion.
    Well, obviously I disagree with you. While the Founders did, in some cases, have some differing ideas about various Constitutional matters, it wasn't as wildly diverse as you're painting it to be, according to my own studies and readings.

    I often use Founder quotes when I get into arguments with people about what the Constitution means. They use this argument that "the Founders didn't agree on anything!", and then I invite them to show me some Founder quotes in opposition to my position.... and 99% of the time they can't, or won't, or don't.

    So I can understand why some people wish to exclude the Founders from discussions about the Constitution's meaning.... it is because they can't find Founder quotes supporting their position.

    "Present company excepted"... I'm not necessarily talking about you, Mega.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No, you're just trying to get the Constitution to say what you want it to say.

    If you think that there are parts of the FF's that disagreed and they are being ignored then you can quite easily find out what they say about <insert subject here> and post any dissenting opinions that they had. Force the people that are using the FF's for thier cause to consider what other FF's had to say on the subject. That is after all what debate is all about.
    Well I disagree. I have two main opinions about the subject.

    1. Those guys aren't alive today and this in essence makes them irrelevent because they were a product of their time and nothing more.
    2. People pretend that the FF's were somehow authoritative when they did not speak with one voice. Heck, the SC gained the power of interpretation very quickly after the founding of the nation because these things were never set in stone.

    There is no getting the constitution to say what I want because by default it says what we read. This has to be true, because we are all individuals which makes it impossible for us to bring in the same understanding due to our own experiences and that these are not simple concepts.

    As I said before, somehow pretending this is not true is a dishonest thing that many people do.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-01-11 at 02:41 PM.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well I disagree. I have two main opinions about the subject.

    1. Those guys aren't alive today and this in essence makes them irrelevent because they were a product of their time and nothing more.
    2. People pretend that the FF's were somehow authoritative when they did not speak with one voice. Heck, the SC gained the power of interpretation very quickly after the founding of the nation because these things were never set in stone.

    There is no getting the constitution to say what I want because by default it says what we read. This has to be true, because we are all individuals which makes it impossible for us to bring in the same understanding due to our own experiences and that these are not simple concepts.

    As I said before, somehow pretending this is not true is a dishonest thing that many people do.
    Going strictly by what is written will do no good as different people will interpret things different based solely on a reading. The biggest example of such a thing is the Bible. How many differing religions are ther based off of that ONE book?

    The Second Amendment alone can be read as that of only the militia (state supported military) being able to keep and bear arms. The ONLY way in which to keep the right to bear arms where it belongs, with the individual, is by reading what the FF's had to say on the subject.

    Sorry but the only way to keep the rights that we have is to fully understand the history of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Otherwise you are just doomed to repeat history. Which can easily mean that you rights would be taken away. History is rife with good intentions gone bad.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Going strictly by what is written will do no good as different people will interpret things different based solely on a reading. The biggest example of such a thing is the Bible. How many differing religions are ther based off of that ONE book?

    The Second Amendment alone can be read as that of only the militia (state supported military) being able to keep and bear arms. The ONLY way in which to keep the right to bear arms where it belongs, with the individual, is by reading what the FF's had to say on the subject.

    Sorry but the only way to keep the rights that we have is to fully understand the history of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Otherwise you are just doomed to repeat history. Which can easily mean that you rights would be taken away. History is rife with good intentions gone bad.
    Rights are fluid depending on a lot of stuff though, primarily a person's belief on what their rights are and what space they can create to exercise their out of the world. By default, we have no rights, because we are subject to the whims of the wild. Its not a matter of having some absolute concept of rights (which, like the constitution will be different for everybody for the same reasons) and then forcing a person's reading of the constitution to adopt to that. That way creates bias for a conclusion before the document is even read.

    As for your bible question, I have always seen them all as Christian. I guess thinking about it, I consider every citizen an American too even though we all are individuals with our own views.

    As for the second amendment, I can see it going at least two ways and still being objectively correct based on my own vocabulary and understanding of the english language. Both ending up with people not losing their ability to purchase and own weapons
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-01-11 at 03:06 PM.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Rights are fluid depending on a lot of stuff though, primarily a person's belief on what their rights are and what space they can create to exercise their out of the world. By default, we have no rights, because we are subject to the whims of the wild. Its not a matter of having some absolute concept of rights (which, like the constitution will be different for everybody for the same reasons) and then forcing a person's reading of the constitution to adopt to that. That way creates bias for a conclusion before the document is even read.
    You are right, rights are fluid. That is why we must have a frame of reference. Otherwise you end up with chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    As for your bible question, I have always seen them all as Christian. I guess thinking about it, I consider every citizen an American too even though we all are individuals with our own views.
    And history has shown that there are those that do not think as you do. That there are those that would subjugate a people and kill them simply for their beliefs. A modern example of this would be extremeist muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    As for the second amendment, I can see it going at least two ways and still being objectively correct based on my own vocabulary and understanding of the english language. Both ending up with people not losing their ability to purchase and own weapons
    The way you see it alone doesn't matter. There are those that would use the reading that I gave of it in order to limit the population of having guns...or get rid of it permanently. All that it would take is to ignore the basis behind the second amendment.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In a debate today, someone tried to settle a point by referencing what one of the founding fathers thought about it instead of arguing the point on its own merits.

    Is there some sort of religion out there that I am not aware of that considers these guys the end all and be all of argumentation as opposed to a person using their own reasoning?
    The Founding Fathersí opinions trump your opinions when it comes to the constitution. End of story!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    You are right, rights are fluid. That is why we must have a frame of reference. Otherwise you end up with chaos.
    Sometimes yes, but humans are instinctive civilization builders. Societies will muddle through and in some ways be better and in some ways be worse, than our country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And history has shown that there are those that do not think as you do. That there are those that would subjugate a people and kill them simply for their beliefs. A modern example of this would be extremeist muslims.
    There will always be monsters, regardless on how we come down on the founding father question. However, this does bring up an interesting way to show my point about belief. I have seen several people here say (to paraphrase) "I believe the constitution should be interpreted a certain way because I believe that certain things are important". Basically saying that they have certain beliefs and they want the constitution to reflect those beliefs. This is something I have seen people from all labels write. Ultimately, it is about belief and the strongest belief winning. Extremist muslims are another example of this. Every set of beliefs has its use, benefits, and problems and often beliefs that work well in certain scenarios do not work well in others.
    The end result of this fundamental truth is that there are going to be bad people no matter what happens or how we interpret legal documents. What we are trumps what we believe. I have yet to see someone fight for a philosophy or point of view that they think is fundamentally bad for themselves and society (but maybe only one if they are exceptionally good or evil).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The way you see it alone doesn't matter. There are those that would use the reading that I gave of it in order to limit the population of having guns...or get rid of it permanently. All that it would take is to ignore the basis behind the second amendment.
    If a majority feels this way, then it is only right that this is the direction civilization turns.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-01-11 at 04:21 PM.

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