View Poll Results: Is founding fatherism a religion?

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  • No

    34 61.82%
  • Yes

    13 23.64%
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Thread: Is founding fatherism a religion?

  1. #71
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Are you saying you are smarter than the founding fathers about the topic being debated at the time? That isn't a trick question, and you may feel the valid answer is yes. It's ok if you answer that way, but people will judge the validity of your own argument based on your self-assessment. It's not religion to defer to what we consider to be a higher authority. If it was, then most science, economics, and government debates would actually be religious ones. For example, how many common non-scientist evolutionists know nearly as much about anything scientific as the scientists who feed them information? Yet most debates with evolutionists end with them saying they aren't scientists, but they know the scientists are right.
    I would say its impossible to really tell if I am more intelligent because the context of today would have been completely alien to the context of the late 1700s. I see it as apples and oranges for that reason and it makes comparison very hard or impossible.

  2. #72
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. And I even agree with you in some cases. I don't think that that is true in every case though.



    What do you mean IF we start reinterpreting the constitution? That happens all the time, and we haven't lost the right to bear arms yet.
    Name one that's been reinterpreted.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Again, I strongly disagree with this. There is not a single 'right' interpretation of the constitution. We are free to interpret it in the way that is most beneficial to us.

    If you go against the author's intent then it is wrong period. We are not free to interpret the constitution any way we damn well please. The only right interpretation is author's. Using interpretations not of the founding fathers is blatant misinterpretation. Blatantly misinterpreting the constitution in order to remove or add rights in order to avoid going through the amendment process in un-American and anti-constitutional. The only way you can remove,restrict or add a right is to amend the constitution. We have the amendment process so that we can change the constitution to add or remove rights.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Because they tend to worship the founding fathers as near deities, whatever the founding fathers thought or intended must have been unbelievably amazing and absolutely true and inerrant, we ought to all aspire to follow every thought of the founding fathers in their most minute detail and clearly the founding fathers had absolute knowledge of everything tha was coming in the future and took all of it into account.

    Except none of that is true. They were just men with a good idea. Thinking that just because they thought it, we ought to embrace it, and only it, for all of eternity is absolutely absurd.
    No, they don't. I have read much of the neoconservative writings out there from their half-century of existence, and they do not worship the Founding Fathers. Irving Kristol and many others were critical of some of the Founding Fathers for placing too much emphasis on the ability of the rational mind and the individual to guide society. They saw the founding documents of the United States incredibly useful to remember to use as a guide or as documents of wise political philosophy and governance, but not to do so without a cautious mind. Or, as Nathan Glazer once put it, "we were never enthusiasts" (regarding much of anything). They prefer what the Founding Fathers had done, but they are not worshipers by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who says that doesn't know much about neoconservatism, or for that matter, American politics, because there are few, if any worshippers. Lastly, I think it would be obvious that there is much dispute about how conservative or "original intent" Neoconservatives are to begin with.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-31-10 at 07:55 PM.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Believing in the Founding Fathers does NOT mean you follow it as a RELIGION!
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    The Founding Fathers weren't a uniform group. Both they and subsequent authors of law (including clauses of the U.S. Constitution) kept phrases deliberately vague and open-ended for the sake of solidarity.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 12-31-10 at 11:02 PM.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    No it's not a religion, but it does take ridiculous influence over modern issues.

  8. #78
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you go against the author's intent then it is wrong period. We are not free to interpret the constitution any way we damn well please. The only right interpretation is author's. Using interpretations not of the founding fathers is blatant misinterpretation. Blatantly misinterpreting the constitution in order to remove or add rights in order to avoid going through the amendment process in un-American and anti-constitutional. The only way you can remove,restrict or add a right is to amend the constitution. We have the amendment process so that we can change the constitution to add or remove rights.
    Completely untrue. The supreme court exists to interpret the constitution.
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  9. #79
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In a debate today, someone tried to settle a point by referencing what one of the founding fathers thought about it instead of arguing the point on its own merits.

    Is there some sort of religion out there that I am not aware of that considers these guys the end all and be all of argumentation as opposed to a person using their own reasoning?

    Fundamentally, there are two positions that can be taken.

    1. The Constitution is the law of the land as written.

    2. It isn't.

    If you take position 1, then determining what the Constitution, as written, means is a matter of reading it literally. Where there is dispute, what the people who wrote it said about it trumps modern interpretation.

    If you take position 2, you think modern re-interpretations are the thing, perhaps even if they turn the Original Intent upside down and inside out.

    The problem with position 2 is that the Constitution no longer serves as a hard-wired check on government power, and you end up with "government that can do ANYTHING, as long as 276 of the 550 people who run the country agree on it."

    I prefer to stick as closely as possible to what the Founders wrote, and where there is dispute to consider their other writings to determine what they meant. Any other course can lead to "anything goes".

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  10. #80
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Fundamentally, there are two positions that can be taken.

    1. The Constitution is the law of the land as written.

    2. It isn't.

    If you take position 1, then determining what the Constitution, as written, means is a matter of reading it literally. Where there is dispute, what the people who wrote it said about it trumps modern interpretation.

    If you take position 2, you think modern re-interpretations are the thing, perhaps even if they turn the Original Intent upside down and inside out.

    The problem with position 2 is that the Constitution no longer serves as a hard-wired check on government power, and you end up with "government that can do ANYTHING, as long as 276 of the 550 people who run the country agree on it."

    I prefer to stick as closely as possible to what the Founders wrote, and where there is dispute to consider their other writings to determine what they meant. Any other course can lead to "anything goes".
    I disagree with the idea of the constitution as the law of the land requiring that it be interpreted one way. It is perfectly acceptable for it to be the law but have some discussion about the exactness given that each of the founding fathers had their own opinions, so there was never an "original intent" even from the very beginning. It is precisely this fantasy that there was an original intent, even though the constitution was largely an example of compromise, that I wonder if the notion of original intent is fantasy more than reality.

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