View Poll Results: Is founding fatherism a religion?

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    34 61.82%
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Thread: Is founding fatherism a religion?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Lack of evidence and denial are not the same thing.
    Your evidence, sir.

    Democrats to push reinstatement of Fairness Doctrine



    That is not what I am suggesting. The first amendment prohibits the intermingling of religion and state. While a state sponsored religion is a subset of that, there is also more to it.
    Actually the Constitution only says that there is to be no state sponsored religion and that's purdy much it. It says nothing about intermingling of religion and state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I just did a quick google search and this guy thinks the founders were socialists. It turns out Jefferson was kind of a socialist president in his time.



    JURIST - Forum: Our Socialist Founding Fathers

    Thank god the disgusting socialist Thomas Jefferson gave us a highway system.

    I bet this guy believes that Bush orchestrated 9/11, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Some people (mostly conservatives) feel that the founding fathers' opinions on government should trump those of people alive today. I'm inclined to disagree. While I think their opinions should be respected, I believe that they should be given less weight than the people alive today who actually have to live under our government.
    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that our founding forefathers wrote our constitution and many of our laws and many people on both sides of the political isle like to argue what is the intent or what is the meaning of a right. So unless the constitution has been amended the opinion of those who wrote it do trump the opinions of people today.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #24
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that our founding forefathers wrote our constitution and many of our laws and many people on both sides of the political isle like to argue what is the intent or what is the meaning of a right. So unless the constitution has been amended the opinion of those who wrote it do trump the opinions of people today.
    Does the constitution get amended with the opinions of the people yesterday?
    Don't work out, work in.

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  5. #25
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Does the constitution get amended with the opinions of the people yesterday?
    Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. I do not know. However this is not the same as blatantly ignoring an amendment or blatantly misinterpreting the constitution to create rights that do not exist or to take away rights without first amending the constitution.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #26
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Does the constitution get amended with the opinions of the people yesterday?
    Perhaps, but it has to be amended. It can't just be wadded up and thrown in the garbage.

    The Founders knew that, sooner, or later, some clowns would come along and totally twist the meaning of the document. So, they put safegaurds in place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that our founding forefathers wrote our constitution and many of our laws and many people on both sides of the political isle like to argue what is the intent or what is the meaning of a right. So unless the constitution has been amended the opinion of those who wrote it do trump the opinions of people today.
    I would agree with the idea that the founding fathers' opinions trump anyone else's when it comes to questions on the original intent of the constitution. After all, they wrote it, and they would know better than anyone what their original intent was. I'm not arguing that.

    What I'm saying, is that when the question is how should we interpret and apply the constitution to the world we live in today, the opinions of the founding fathers count for less. Their opinions on it are not without merit even in such a discussion, since they were intelligent men, and the original intent of the document gives us a jumping off point, but this is mitigated by the fact that when they wrote those opinions, the country was a VERY different place. Societal values were different, the physical makeup of our country was different, and the difficulty of communication made for a very different political and social landscape in America.

    Change just for the sake of change is bad, but so is tradition just for the sake of tradition. Just because the founding fathers interpreted the constitution in a certain way is not a good reason for us to do the same. If we are to follow their interpretation, it should be because that manner of interpretation is what is best for us in the world we live in today.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I would agree with the idea that the founding fathers' opinions trump anyone else's when it comes to questions on the original intent of the constitution. After all, they wrote it, and they would know better than anyone what their original intent was. I'm not arguing that.

    What I'm saying, is that when the question is how should we interpret and apply the constitution to the world we live in today, the opinions of the founding fathers count for less. Their opinions on it are not without merit even in such a discussion, since they were intelligent men, and the original intent of the document gives us a jumping off point, but this is mitigated by the fact that when they wrote those opinions, the country was a VERY different place. Societal values were different, the physical makeup of our country was different, and the difficulty of communication made for a very different political and social landscape in America.

    Change just for the sake of change is bad, but so is tradition just for the sake of tradition. Just because the founding fathers interpreted the constitution in a certain way is not a good reason for us to do the same. If we are to follow their interpretation, it should be because that manner of interpretation is what is best for us in the world we live in today.
    What about the Constitution would you want to change?

    The Bill of Rights isn't so complex that societal changes effect what they mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What about the Constitution would you want to change?

    The Bill of Rights isn't so complex that societal changes effect what they mean.
    It's not so much that I think it needs to be changed (though I could probably come up with things that I think should be changed). It's that I don't think we need to slavishly interpret it the same way that the founding fathers would have. We should interpret it in the way that benefits us as a country most. Here's an example.

    Quite awhile ago, I got into a debate on nationalized healthcare. Whoever I was debating with (I don't remember who it was now) argued that nationalized healthcare because was unconstitutional. I brought up the general welfare clause, and their counter-argument was that the founding fathers intent was not for the general welfare clause to be used that way.

    That's the kind of thing that I have issues with. I don't believe that the founding fathers' intent should trump our intent in cases like that. We should debate an issue on its own merits, and if it turns out to be beneficial to us as a country, then we should do it, regardless of whether or not the founding fathers would have approved.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Great, now do you have a real source?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually the Constitution only says that there is to be no state sponsored religion and that's purdy much it. It says nothing about intermingling of religion and state.
    I suggest you read what it actually says.

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