View Poll Results: Is founding fatherism a religion?

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  • No

    34 61.82%
  • Yes

    13 23.64%
  • What you say?!

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Thread: Is founding fatherism a religion?

  1. #141
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    So I showed you two Founding Fathers with totally different opinoins on who should determine the meaning of the Constitution. One of them, Alexander Hamilton, helped WRITE the thing and he thinks he should no authority to decide its meaning.

    So no response? I mean you have two cheer leaders thanking every one of your posts, you don't want to let them down?
    I believe the words of Paul Simon in THE BOXER apply here

    "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"


    I also have posted such things and the result is the chirping of crickets in a distant forest.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    I think the Founders were no more genius than anyone alive today. They were men who were faced with forming a new government and did as any would, burrowed from the philosopers of the past. Most of their ideas were not their own unique creations, but as in all studies, continuations of the work of others. They were fallible and we all know that. They made mistakes as any would in their place, but they deserve great respect for having the courage and fortitude to fight for the freedom of their nation from tyranny. In as much, that does not call for treating them as Gods, but that we should do as they did and build on what they started to continuously improve government.

  3. #143
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    i also listen to NPR a great deal and had not heard any such thing. Do you have a link to this story or discussion?

    Again, I see many on the right confusing progressive scorn for the right trying to claim their view of the Constitution as their own with scorn for the document itself. And I think - for some - that confusion is deliberate and intentional and a blatant attempt to attack progressives.


    Nope I don't. And I won't waste my time looking for it. you are free to find it on your own.



    What I will say your scorn is for the Constitution, that is clear. It's an obstacle for you statism. and it's all too transparent to see....


    Publishing Company Under Fire for Putting Warning Label on Constitution - FoxNews.com


    Mind you, you must hold the document in contempt given the nonesense about seeing a right to abortion in thier but not the right to a firearm....

    Or that you hold the document to be a "living document" subject to the whim of any idiot liberal with a feel good idiotic idea..


    no my friend, you don't respect or value the USC like we do, and it is a concerted effort from you liberals (not all, just the most hack type ones) to devalue the document that is the very foundation of my great nation.
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  4. #144
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see many on the right confusing progressive scorn for the right trying to claim their view of the Constitution as their own with scorn for the document itself.
    I agree with this absolutely. It is a mistake that many make to think that only their view is valid.

  5. #145
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I believe the words of Paul Simon in THE BOXER apply here

    "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"


    I also have posted such things and the result is the chirping of crickets in a distant forest.

    Well pardon me. I sometimes get tired of beating my head against brick walls and go do something else for a while.

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  6. #146
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Nope I don't. And I won't waste my time looking for it. you are free to find it on your own.



    What I will say your scorn is for the Constitution, that is clear. It's an obstacle for you statism. and it's all too transparent to see....


    Publishing Company Under Fire for Putting Warning Label on Constitution - FoxNews.com


    Mind you, you must hold the document in contempt given the nonesense about seeing a right to abortion in thier but not the right to a firearm....

    Or that you hold the document to be a "living document" subject to the whim of any idiot liberal with a feel good idiotic idea..


    no my friend, you don't respect or value the USC like we do, and it is a concerted effort from you liberals (not all, just the most hack type ones) to devalue the document that is the very foundation of my great nation.
    1- I love the Constitution.
    2- Statism? So you are now a converted anarchist? The last time I looked we both valued both a society with a government and citizens with freedom. I hope you have not changed into an anarchist.
    3- Abortion????? And what did I say about that????
    4- You sound like an 9th grade girl in school lunch room screaming "I love him more than you do and he's mine"
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  7. #147
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    So I showed you two Founding Fathers with totally different opinoins on who should determine the meaning of the Constitution. One of them, Alexander Hamilton, helped WRITE the thing and he thinks he should no authority to decide its meaning.

    So no response? I mean you have two cheer leaders thanking every one of your posts, you don't want to let them down?

    Pardon my tardiness. As you requested....
    Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the
    Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages
    who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean
    to be masters."

    Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves
    back to the time when the Constitution was adopted,
    recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
    and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it,
    [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to
    William Johnson)

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #148
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Pardon my tardiness. As you requested....
    I don't understand what you're getting at.

  9. #149
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Sometimes yes, but humans are instinctive civilization builders. Societies will muddle through and in some ways be better and in some ways be worse, than our country.
    But at what cost in the interim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    There will always be monsters, regardless on how we come down on the founding father question. However, this does bring up an interesting way to show my point about belief. I have seen several people here say (to paraphrase) "I believe the constitution should be interpreted a certain way because I believe that certain things are important". Basically saying that they have certain beliefs and they want the constitution to reflect those beliefs. This is something I have seen people from all labels write. Ultimately, it is about belief and the strongest belief winning. Extremist muslims are another example of this. Every set of beliefs has its use, benefits, and problems and often beliefs that work well in certain scenarios do not work well in others.
    The end result of this fundamental truth is that there are going to be bad people no matter what happens or how we interpret legal documents. What we are trumps what we believe. I have yet to see someone fight for a philosophy or point of view that they think is fundamentally bad for themselves and society (but maybe only one if they are exceptionally good or evil).
    It is also for this very reason that we should stick to what the FF's said about the things that they passed in the Constitution. It provides a way in which reinterpretation cannot be made so that it "fits" a person/group of persons beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If a majority feels this way, then it is only right that this is the direction civilization turns.
    As the Constitution is based on individual freedoms then no, it should not be the direction that the majority of civilization should go. Other wise you just have mob rule.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is largely how I see it. The founding fathers had many ideas I happen to agree with (which means I believe that had many good ideas ). However, the point of this thread, which it seems that a LARGE number of people have missed is that debating ideas is good, but fundamentalism (meaning the attitude of "if jefferson or some other ff said it, its good" without examination of the idea itself) is wrong and is what I deemed to be founding fatherism for the purpose of this thread.

    A lot of people here did not bother to understand the thread and figured i was some sort of attack on the whole thing. But you can't fault them for their limited view on things I guess.
    I agree with you here.

    Thing though is that 9.5 times outta 10 I had already examined the idea of what they said to myself. I had already decided that the idea that they had was a good idea or a bad idea before I even post. Interestingly enough when it comes to discussions of FF's I have always posted in threads where the ideas that the FF's had coincide with my own ideas. (as such, to me they are right and good) about the only exception to this has been threads on slavery....of course even then I just don't mention the FF's as thier beliefs and mine defer on that subject.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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