View Poll Results: Is founding fatherism a religion?

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Thread: Is founding fatherism a religion?

  1. #121
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Like or not, that's the way things are and no excuses or rationalizations will make it any better. .. Not much different from the army where DIs made us all eat dirt.

    I'm retired with a pension and out of the rat race, finally able to see things the way they were...

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    So are you saying you personally don't agree with them, but you think they are just fine in places where a majority of the people do? You do realize slavery, honor killing, and similarly dispicable practices are currently being practiced in some areas, don't you?

    Is there anything you think should be prohibited, even if a majority approve of it?

    .
    I think you missed the point of my reply, so I will restate. If our culture was suddenly so different that for some reason slavery was deemed ok, we would likely have a different perspective on the issue since we are a part of that culture and it would require a lot of people to change their views. People always go "that will never happen to me" but if that many people change, then its statistically likely that it could happen to us as well.

    However, if I retained my current perspective, I would do my best to be a force for what I believed was right, which I would not advocate for slavery or honor killings. In fact I think such cultures are inferior to our current one and we can see that from a basis of looking at harm. So in essence, I think a great many things I find immoral should not be permitted (and some things I find immoral should be permitted because it has been shown that restricting them can be harmful to society and I have no wish to cause harm). However, my view on what should or should not be permitted has very little to do with the constitution or the philosophy that it was derived from.

    It probably is in some sense an absolute morality (as I see my beliefs to be completely right (or else I would believe in something else)), but its different from the philosophical foundations of the constitution, but has a lot in common with it.

    Also, it should be obvious to you (or maybe not since you went immediately to an extreme either out of ignorance or as a debate tactic, I am not sure which), that when I made that comment I was not thinking of slavery, but more mundane matters. Obviously, if one goes to an extreme, the calculation becomes different, but I also see it as dishonest to equate slavery or honor killings with something more mundane like a popular dislike of prostitution or a majority view on something like health care. There is a huge difference between normal stuff and the extreme stuff of course.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-03-11 at 09:33 PM.

  3. #123
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I think that understanding the thought-processes of the founding fathers is important. . .knowing *why* things were done is important to apply such thoughts to your actions or the future . . .and so on.

    But I think people tend to take it *too* far - and examine things *too much*
    This is largely how I see it. The founding fathers had many ideas I happen to agree with (which means I believe that had many good ideas ). However, the point of this thread, which it seems that a LARGE number of people have missed is that debating ideas is good, but fundamentalism (meaning the attitude of "if jefferson or some other ff said it, its good" without examination of the idea itself) is wrong and is what I deemed to be founding fatherism for the purpose of this thread.

    A lot of people here did not bother to understand the thread and figured i was some sort of attack on the whole thing. But you can't fault them for their limited view on things I guess.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-03-11 at 09:22 PM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is largely how I see it. The founding fathers had many ideas I happen to agree with (which means I believe that had many good ideas ). However, the point of this thread, which it seems that a LARGE number of people have missed is that debating ideas is good, but fundamentalism (meaning the attitude of "if jefferson or some other ff said it, its good" without examination of the idea itself) is wrong and is what I deemed to be founding fatherism for the purpose of this thread.

    A lot of people here did not bother to understand the thread and figured i was some sort of attack on the whole thing. But you can't fault them for their limited view on things I guess.
    Oh - well yes on that point, absolutely - I agree with you and I do see it happen.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is largely how I see it. The founding fathers had many ideas I happen to agree with (which means I believe that had many good ideas ). However, the point of this thread, which it seems that a LARGE number of people have missed is that debating ideas is good, but fundamentalism (meaning the attitude of "if jefferson or some other ff said it, its good" without examination of the idea itself) is wrong and is what I deemed to be founding fatherism for the purpose of this thread.

    A lot of people here did not bother to understand the thread and figured i was some sort of attack on the whole thing. But you can't fault them for their limited view on things I guess.

    Oh, I would certainly not say there was anything wrong with delving into the why's and wherefore's of the FF positions. Personally I've found it to be fascinating research, digging into why they viewed things they way they did, and how they ended up with what they ended up with.

    My chief point is that of exercising great caution in "playing fast and loose" with the Constitution. It's purpose is to limit government, and really limited government was practically the sine qua non of this country's founding and its greatness. If govt's limits are not rather hard-set and held in high respect, things can get very loose in a hurry.... leading to unlimited government.
    I have a huge problem with government that is not strictly limited. It tends to lead to authoritarianism if not totalitarianism.

    My respect for the Constitution and the original intent of the Founders flows chiefly from my rational and sensible fear of unlimited government, not from a religious-like reverence of the men themselves. To me, the more we treat the Constitution as something fluid and easily changeable, the less likely we are to maintain the ideal of limited government.

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  6. #126
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Oh, I would certainly not say there was anything wrong with delving into the why's and wherefore's of the FF positions. Personally I've found it to be fascinating research, digging into why they viewed things they way they did, and how they ended up with what they ended up with.

    My chief point is that of exercising great caution in "playing fast and loose" with the Constitution. It's purpose is to limit government, and really limited government was practically the sine qua non of this country's founding and its greatness. If govt's limits are not rather hard-set and held in high respect, things can get very loose in a hurry.... leading to unlimited government.
    I have a huge problem with government that is not strictly limited. It tends to lead to authoritarianism if not totalitarianism.

    My respect for the Constitution and the original intent of the Founders flows chiefly from my rational and sensible fear of unlimited government, not from a religious-like reverence of the men themselves. To me, the more we treat the Constitution as something fluid and easily changeable, the less likely we are to maintain the ideal of limited government.
    I know Goshin, you are one of the more reasonable people on this forum. However, many here use the FF's as if it was some sort of magical talisman against thought. There are quite a few posts in this very thread that display that type of lack of thought, but I would probably run afoul of the rules to point them out specifically.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-03-11 at 09:40 PM.

  7. #127
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Whether you realize it or not, slavery is very much alive today. Workers have to do what demanding bosses tell them or lose their jobs. Of course they can quit and find another job but they'll still have to please the new boss. Maybe not as compelling as whips or beatings but just as effective.

    One way or another everyone works for a demanding boss, and bosses have their bosses all the way up to CEOs. Only the retired and SS recipients are exempt.

    ricksfolly
    That's not slavery. If you are going to use slavery, at least use the black market version, for Pete's sake. You're just defiling the hardship of real slavery.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 01-03-11 at 11:18 PM.
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think you missed the point of my reply, so I will restate. If our culture was suddenly so different that for some reason slavery was deemed ok, we would likely have a different perspective on the issue since we are a part of that culture and it would require a lot of people to change their views. People always go "that will never happen to me" but if that many people change, then its statistically likely that it could happen to us as well.

    However, if I retained my current perspective, I would do my best to be a force for what I believed was right, which I would not advocate for slavery or honor killings. In fact I think such cultures are inferior to our current one and we can see that from a basis of looking at harm. So in essence, I think a great many things I find immoral should not be permitted (and some things I find immoral should be permitted because it has been shown that restricting them can be harmful to society and I have no wish to cause harm). However, my view on what should or should not be permitted has very little to do with the constitution or the philosophy that it was derived from.

    It probably is in some sense an absolute morality (as I see my beliefs to be completely right (or else I would believe in something else)), but its different from the philosophical foundations of the constitution, but has a lot in common with it.

    Also, it should be obvious to you (or maybe not since you went immediately to an extreme either out of ignorance or as a debate tactic, I am not sure which), that when I made that comment I was not thinking of slavery, but more mundane matters. Obviously, if one goes to an extreme, the calculation becomes different, but I also see it as dishonest to equate slavery or honor killings with something more mundane like a popular dislike of prostitution or a majority view on something like health care. There is a huge difference between normal stuff and the extreme stuff of course.
    Maybe you should think about it a little more before making a general statement such as you did. You implied that whatever the majority wanted is how it should be.

    ricksfolly compares normal employment to slavery so, appearently, some folks in the USA do not consider slavery such a bad thing.

    I find the idea of mob rule to be abhorrent.

    .

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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    People tend to forget that the Founding Fathers had disagreements just as big, some even larger, than the one's anyone on the forum has with anyone else. The Constitution is literally a hodgepodge of just about everyone who attended the convention ideas, heck several Founding Fathers didn't even attend the Constitutional Convention because they disagreed so much with even the idea of changing the government from the Articles of Confederation.

    If anyone here knows Patrick Henry he's the one who gave the famous speech before the Virginia assembly before they voted whether to mobilize the militia against the British, and therefore send them to war. His speech is the one which ends with that famous line "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" He refused to attend the Convention, likening as a step towards Monarchy in the United States.

    Then you have someone like Alexander Hamilton, who while at the convention advocated for the complete dissolution of all the states and the total concentration of government in the capitol. That doesn't sound very much like something a Founding Father would say, but its true.
    Rhode Island refused to even sent any delegates to the convention and its acceptance by the state was basically forced upon it by the others.

    When someone says "I agree with the Founding Fathers" as if they all shared the same opinion, it really shows off their lack of knowledge about history. The damn convention lasted for almost SIX MONTHS, now I know they didn't have MS Word back then but it didn't take that long to write the thing, there was a lot of back and forth about exactly what would be done.

  10. #130
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    Re: Is founding fatherism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    People tend to forget that the Founding Fathers had disagreements just as big, some even larger, than the one's anyone on the forum has with anyone else. The Constitution is literally a hodgepodge of just about everyone who attended the convention ideas, heck several Founding Fathers didn't even attend the Constitutional Convention because they disagreed so much with even the idea of changing the government from the Articles of Confederation.

    If anyone here knows Patrick Henry he's the one who gave the famous speech before the Virginia assembly before they voted whether to mobilize the militia against the British, and therefore send them to war. His speech is the one which ends with that famous line "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give me Liberty, or give me Death!" He refused to attend the Convention, likening as a step towards Monarchy in the United States.

    Then you have someone like Alexander Hamilton, who while at the convention advocated for the complete dissolution of all the states and the total concentration of government in the capitol. That doesn't sound very much like something a Founding Father would say, but its true.
    Rhode Island refused to even sent any delegates to the convention and its acceptance by the state was basically forced upon it by the others.

    When someone says "I agree with the Founding Fathers" as if they all shared the same opinion, it really shows off their lack of knowledge about history. The damn convention lasted for almost SIX MONTHS, now I know they didn't have MS Word back then but it didn't take that long to write the thing, there was a lot of back and forth about exactly what would be done.
    Yes, there were things on which some of them disagreed strongly. Despite this, they managed to reach a compromise on most issues, a consensus of sorts, in writing the Constitution.

    There are some issues on which there was much disagreement, but most of those that ended up in the Constitution involved some level of consensus, or at least majority.

    If I propose that a certain portion of the Constitution or BoR means "X" because this is what ten Founders had to say about what they meant by it.... then instead of telling me that the Founders don't count because they disagreed with one another, refute me by demonstrating that the FF's were not in consensus on the matter. Find a similar number of FF's that disagreed with my position and you will have negated my argument. Simply telling me that the FF's disagreed with each other on many things does not prove that they didn't agree on a specific point.

    When it comes to Constitutional interpretation, what the large majority of FF's say they intended by it IS what it was ORIGINALLY intended to mean. If you don't like that or don't think it applies to modern life anymore, there's this process called AMENDMENT.

    Pardon my emphasis. I am passionate on this subject, because I believe it is a respect for the strict letter of the Constitution that keeps us from the horror that is unlimited government... as it was intended to.

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