View Poll Results: Is extreme nationalism ALWAYS bad in every situation?

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  • yes

    34 64.15%
  • no

    15 28.30%
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    4 7.55%
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Thread: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    What does a nationalist do when his country no longer exists? He or she has a choice between acceptance and revenge.
    Simple, you lay in wait and rise up again to reclaim your homeland and to restore your nation :P
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    "Is extreme nationalism ALWAYS bad in every situation?"

    No. While there may be situations where it is bad, there may be other situations where it is perfectly acceptable. People like to say that because Germans had powerful "nationalism" that nationalism is a bad thing, completely ignoring the fact that it was another country with a high level of nationalism(America) to drive them back, and to effectively bring down the Soviet Union. Those douchebag hippies in the 60s and 70s tried to erode that in this country, but that's what drugs will do to you.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    And nationalism is NOT an arbitrary sociological construct?
    Oh, it certainly is. But it, at least, is an outgrowth of natural human patterns of loyalty. As the individual is to the tribe, the tribe is to the nation. It makes sense, and it provides both a means and a justification for the loyalty demanded.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Do you deny that nationalism imposes a loyalty to strangers than to members of your own family? Nationalism demands that you give the same treatment, the same respect, and the same charity to people in New York City as you would to people in your immediate family who live in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
    I have relationships with people in New York City. I have shared cultural and traditional values with them. I could be related to people from New York City.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    But the Nazis attempt to rid the world of international Jewry in the '30s and '40s is not something you oppose?
    It was their business.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    So basically, you believe that all attempts to eliminate another family or nationality in a time of war is totally acceptable. Blood wars based on clan ties have illustrated to be the most chaotic societies in history.
    Hence why we have the State to impose order.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I just explained why, did you not read my post?
    Your expression that superiority can be determined based on metric comparison is a lot like arguing that black people are inherently superior to white people in terms of athletic ability. If we're talking about national superiority, your argument is chauvinistic through and through. Land and resources are irrelevant. Government and economic structures can be compared and put on a gradient scale, based on historic success. But culture, in this debate, is the source of your chauvinism. But not to worry, you're no different than the billions of other people who think their "culture" is superior to anothers. I don't approach the topic in that direction. Even if we take the easiest challenge from an anthropological perspective- the female circumcision debate. Anthropologists can't decide whether or not they should shun an entire culture based on a single tradition. Many claim that because certain African cultures produce female circumcision rituals, that all cultures are superior to that one. I don't see it that way. I think we should destroy the ritual and condemn it globally. However, I do not propose that my culture is superior to theirs because of their archaic traditions.

    Such prejudism and collectivist judgements lead to the most heinous crimes against humanity. The next step would be to eliminate the inferior cultures or to forcibly absorb them into our own.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Oh, it certainly is. But it, at least, is an outgrowth of natural human patterns of loyalty. As the individual is to the tribe, the tribe is to the nation. It makes sense, and it provides both a means and a justification for the loyalty demanded.
    I'm guessing you really loved the Japanese Imperial mentality during WW2. The individual is a cheap piece of the overall national machinery. Its value is easily expendable.

    I have relationships with people in New York City. I have shared cultural and traditional values with them. I could be related to people from New York City.
    Pick any small town anywhere in the USA where you do not have any relations or historic genome links. How close do you feel to those people? Will you die for them? Will you sacrifice your boys for their safety and protection? Will you pay out of your own pocket to provide for their own well-being?

    It was their business.
    You CONDONE the holocaust because it was someone else's business.

    As the old saying goes...

    "They came first for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and by that time no one was left to speak up."

    Hence why we have the State to impose order.
    I don't think you understood my statement. Nations killing each other and attempting to rid the world of certain undesirables is exacty like the decentralized clan wars based on blood ties. I was discussing the international, not the intranational.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    An extremely good nation deserves extreme nationalism. The citizenry must be wise enough to know when their nation is extremely great.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I'm guessing you really loved the Japanese Imperial mentality during WW2. The individual is a cheap piece of the overall national machinery. Its value is easily expendable.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Pick any small town anywhere in the USA where you do not have any relations or historic genome links. How close do you feel to those people? Will you die for them? Will you sacrifice your boys for their safety and protection? Will you pay out of your own pocket to provide for their own well-being?
    If I joined the military, I would already be doing so. The taxes I pay go for their well-being. And as distant as I may feel to those people-- because the USA is a distant, alienated society-- I am still closer to them than I am to foreigners.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    You CONDONE the holocaust because it was someone else's business.
    Yes. Come now, do you honestly think we would have ever lifted a finger to stop it if we weren't already at war with the Germans? If the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor, don't you think we'd have been more than content to allow Germany to murder its way across Europe and Japan to do the same all throughout Asia?

    We put a stop to it because it was convenient to do so. Because it suited our interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I don't think you understood my statement. Nations killing each other and attempting to rid the world of certain undesirables is exacty like the decentralized clan wars based on blood ties. I was discussing the international, not the intranational.
    Do you think the limitations we place on warfare, the Geneva Conventions, lead to less warfare in the world or more?

  8. #68
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I believe that all people are fundamentally equal in worth.
    People may all be equally created, but that doesn't mean in worth. Their worth and values are the result of life conditioning, having the right kind of parents, sibs, peers, friends, and associates.

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  9. #69
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Yes.



    If I joined the military, I would already be doing so. The taxes I pay go for their well-being. And as distant as I may feel to those people-- because the USA is a distant, alienated society-- I am still closer to them than I am to foreigners.
    I understand that. But what's the worth of providing for the welfare of society and protecting it when its components are easily expendable? What is so great about supporting the collective if the sum of the individual parts is nothing special?

    Yes. Come now, do you honestly think we would have ever lifted a finger to stop it if we weren't already at war with the Germans? If the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor, don't you think we'd have been more than content to allow Germany to murder its way across Europe and Japan to do the same all throughout Asia?
    The Allied assault during WW2 is arguably one of the most justified wars in history. Did we do enough to save the prisoners at the time? Certainly not. But there was a real purpose of fighting the war on the side of the allies. I can't say it would be right to expend the resources and manpower to police the world and maintain peace throughout all regions. I do understand that it is the business of the neighboring countries to do something about the massive atrocity. But the thing about Hitler was that he was on path to kill everybody, even Americans. And you can't wait till all of your allies are down before you join in. It may be too late.

    We put a stop to it because it was convenient to do so. Because it suited our interests.
    It was the business of the region's national members to secure peace in their time. Unfortunately, they waited and condoned it as the German's business, until the German's business landed on their doorstep.

    Do you think the limitations we place on warfare, the Geneva Conventions, lead to less warfare in the world or more?
    First, you did not directly respond to the point I made. Second, I don't believe that was the intention of the conventions. I believe the general intention of the law produced by the conventions is to limit the horror and atrocity of war, not war itself. That was the League of Nations and UN, both of which are exceptional failures in preventing wars. But I suppose you have no interest in the horrors of war, no matter how despicable they may be.

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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    An extremely good nation deserves extreme nationalism. The citizenry must be wise enough to know when their nation is extremely great.
    so when an unwise citizenry does not know that their nation is extremely good, there will be no extreme nationalism?
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