View Poll Results: Is extreme nationalism ALWAYS bad in every situation?

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  • yes

    34 64.15%
  • no

    15 28.30%
  • other

    4 7.55%
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Thread: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I notice you didn't respond to the first and most important point. If you're willing to say that the US is "certainly" superior to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia, then how can you not also say that Americans are superior to Venezuelans or Saudi Arabs?
    I didn't notice you making that point sorry. I believe that all people are fundamentally equal in worth. However a nation is not merely people, it is shared culture, accomplishment, economy, land, and a bunch of other stuff. Most of it is what people choose throughout their daily lives. People choose to uphold their cultural, economic, moral, etc values over other possibilities in their every day decisions. It is the result of those choices which has a great influence on how successful a nation is going to be. If something works well, it is certainly superior to something that does not work well. Like a car, I would rather have a nice toyota tundra that can go 150k miles without problems over some cheap 80s american car that can barely go 40k miles. The tundra is superior because it is better fit to its purpose. The same is true with a country.

    I see humans in a totally different manner because 1 they can choose their own purpose and often their own fitness to it (or at least have influence, we cannot all be michael jordon) and 2 the wellbeing of people (which is the purpose of society) has a moral value attached to it that does not deviate between individuals.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 12-30-10 at 07:13 AM.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Yes and no, on the yes side look at Nazi Germany and its idea of Nationalism which it attempted to pass off as National Socialism which was actually nothing more then a half a$$ attempt at Fascism on the Nazi level. That said the answer can also go to no because you should always have some form of commitment to your nation through the patronage to its causes. That does not mean you have to approve everything that it does nor do you have to support the Government you must simply love your nation and the values its based on and then fight to maintain it even if that means the Government of foreign invaders.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I really don't understand why anyone would be "proud to be an American" or any other nationality. You had no control over where you were born, any more than you had control over your race or sex.
    ...Or control of anything else, for that matter. Things happen and we respond the only way we know how.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Racism is the perverse and toxic notion that, as a white American, I should have more in common with the white German than with the black American. It is the belief that according to some arbitrary sociological construct with pseudo-scientific justification, I should have more loyalty to strangers than to members of my own family. It replaces culture and heritage with genome, and as such I find it is as offensive to culture and heritage as your liberal equivocation of these things.
    And nationalism is NOT an arbitrary sociological construct? Do you deny that nationalism imposes a loyalty to strangers than to members of your own family? Nationalism demands that you give the same treatment, the same respect, and the same charity to people in New York City as you would to people in your immediate family who live in Cheyenne, Wyoming.

    Anti-Semitism is tied up in a number of things, ranging from racial discrimination to religious discrimination to nationalism. I'm not opposed to it in principle, but Jews have always been a proud and productive part of the American national fabric and I would be opposed to the efforts of any group which desired to deny or change that.
    But the Nazis attempt to rid the world of international Jewry in the '30s and '40s is not something you oppose?

    I have no problems with genocide as carried out in the course of a war, and consider it nothing more than the logical endpoint of any war that is not ended for other reasons.
    So basically, you believe that all attempts to eliminate another family or nationality in a time of war is totally acceptable. Blood wars based on clan ties have illustrated to be the most chaotic societies in history.

  5. #55
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Except it all arises from that individualistic thinking. When your chief interest involves what is best for you as an individual you naturally learn to get that out of others even if it as their expense. For the individual to disregard the interests of the collective is no better than for the collective to disregard the interests of the individual.
    That is true. But it is much easier to protect the interests of the collective than it is to protect the interests of the individual. You have to be a pretty patient and hard-skinned outsider in order to protect the equal rights of all individuals. To stand up for the interests of one massive majority is quite easy. You can simply go about your day and not say or do a thing to support such an entity, and that would be enough.

  6. #56
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I didn't notice you making that point sorry. I believe that all people are fundamentally equal in worth. However a nation is not merely people, it is shared culture, accomplishment, economy, land, and a bunch of other stuff. Most of it is what people choose throughout their daily lives. People choose to uphold their cultural, economic, moral, etc values over other possibilities in their every day decisions. It is the result of those choices which has a great influence on how successful a nation is going to be. If something works well, it is certainly superior to something that does not work well. Like a car, I would rather have a nice toyota tundra that can go 150k miles without problems over some cheap 80s american car that can barely go 40k miles. The tundra is superior because it is better fit to its purpose. The same is true with a country.

    I see humans in a totally different manner because 1 they can choose their own purpose and often their own fitness to it (or at least have influence, we cannot all be michael jordon) and 2 the wellbeing of people (which is the purpose of society) has a moral value attached to it that does not deviate between individuals.
    I know the components of nationalism. But you said that America is obviously superior to Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. I don't see how, if America is composed of AMERICANS and Venezuela is composed of VENEZUELANS, you cannot think that Americans are superior to Venezuelans.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    The general population believes that they are better than non-Americans
    That is probably true of most nation's populations...

    and how America is the greatest and most powerful country in the world.
    I don't think that most powerful can really be debated. Greatest can be measured ina number of ways from civil liberties, education and structured law to economic stability, wealth and security (secure borders and lack of internal fighting).

    And nothing bad has happened because of this.
    America has done a lot of things wrong from slavery to assassinations... no nation is perfect.

    So do you think that extreme nationalism is a bad thing?
    Extreme Sports are about the only good extreme...
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    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
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    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #58
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Except it all arises from that individualistic thinking. When your chief interest involves what is best for you as an individual you naturally learn to get that out of others even if it as their expense. For the individual to disregard the interests of the collective is no better than for the collective to disregard the interests of the individual.
    And what if the best interest of the collective is to let the individual die? Nobody wants to be that individual unless they are a parent to their child. Individual interests will generally trump the collective interests...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    What does a nationalist do when his country no longer exists? He or she has a choice between acceptance and revenge.

  10. #60
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I know the components of nationalism. But you said that America is obviously superior to Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. I don't see how, if America is composed of AMERICANS and Venezuela is composed of VENEZUELANS, you cannot think that Americans are superior to Venezuelans.
    I just explained why, did you not read my post?

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