View Poll Results: Is extreme nationalism ALWAYS bad in every situation?

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  • yes

    34 64.15%
  • no

    15 28.30%
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    4 7.55%
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Thread: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Nationalism is a substitute for race and religion. See Nazism as a substitute for religion, Zionism as a substitute for race, etc.

    Nationalism, like race and religion, often defines itself exactly by what it is not. Therefore, nationalism is inherently exclusive and notoriously xenophobic. We, as a human civilization, must get past these vague group identities. Let us embrace a more individualistic approach to mankind. One that cherishes the merit and worth of each individual life, regardless of race/sex/religion/etc.
    I agree with this for the most part, though I am not in favor of strict individualism. Strongly identifying with yourself can have many of the same negative consequences and really forms the basis for such things as nationalism.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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  2. #42
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    He said extreme nationalism nationalism itself is all well and good to a point - but it can be taken too far, IMO.
    Today's nationalism is blind faith in partisan politics, not consideration for the people's welfare, not based on logic or common sense, only what the military, politicians, and media chose to tell us.

    ricksfolly

  3. #43
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    I really don't understand why anyone would be "proud to be an American" or any other nationality. You had no control over where you were born, any more than you had control over your race or sex. Sure, nationalities (like race and sex) can on rare occasions be changed, and I can understand why new immigrants would feel proud to be Americans. But aside from that, what exactly do you have to be proud of? Are you proud of the fact that you had the foresight to pop out of a vagina in the United States instead of one in Zambia?

    I can understand appreciating the history, politics, and culture of a nation...but you can do that just as easily whether you are a member of that nation or not. The United States certainly has a rich history with some good points, just like many other nations do. I appreciate American history, but in the detached sense that I can also appreciate British history or French history or Turkish history. I don't feel any particular "pride" in America's past, because I had nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-29-10 at 05:00 PM.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    The way I see it, nationalism is a flexible belief, take me and my country for example, I'm proud of being Australian, and, for example, so is the person of Sudanese descent who lives next door, while my family's been here for 100+ years, and he only became a citizen a few years ago, in my idea of nationalism, we'd still both be equally Australian, even if our ideas of what makes us Australian differ, it's the shared idea, rather than the way that people go about it, is what's important, thus it doesn't infringe on individuality.
    I do think that "the way people go about it" is very important. You have a kind-hearted soul like yourself who praises his nationality, and then you have a reactionary, xenophobic nationalist doing very bad things. Both are exhibiting a degree of nationalistic tendency.

    My main point was that nationalism tends to lead to zealous, xenophobic and exclusive group behavior. You can be proud to be American, but the OP is specifically about extreme nationalism. I think it should be obvious to all that extreme nationalism (much like anything extreme) is unhealthy for society and for individual liberty.

    It's my belief that while individual freedom is a good thing, a completely anarchist society would cause people to form there own little groups and it would just become fractured, people have a need to belong to something, and the less specific it is, the more personal freedoms it would allow as it is less restricting.
    Simplification of civil society is the new idea. Anarchism is notoriously painted as violent, thieving, and chaotic (which it is). But often there are many strands of anarchism just as there are strands of all political ideologies. There's insurrectionary anarchism, and the violent revolutions attempted by the anarchists of the late 1800s and early 1900s. There's also Immediatism Anarchism, Mutualism, Individualist Anarchism, Social Anarchism, etc. I personally like the concept of the Temporary Autonomous Zone, developed by writer and thinker, Hakim Bey. Bey is able to illustrate how even your casual neighborhood get-together is a form of anarchism, where no central authority is delegated or maintained. There's more to anarchism than Luigi Galleani.

    With that said, I'm not an anarchist. I'm a libertarian (or minarchist) and there is a significant difference.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I agree with this for the most part, though I am not in favor of strict individualism. Strongly identifying with yourself can have many of the same negative consequences and really forms the basis for such things as nationalism.
    I don't see how. Could you expand the point?

  6. #46
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I have a copy of the book on my bookshelf and I have read it. I agree with much of its reasoning, but I don't agree with its level of determinism.
    I notice you didn't respond to the first and most important point. If you're willing to say that the US is "certainly" superior to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia, then how can you not also say that Americans are superior to Venezuelans or Saudi Arabs?

  7. #47
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I don't see how. Could you expand the point?
    To put it simply people bring their nationality into their self identity to where a slight against a nation is considered a slight against the individual.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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  8. #48
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    To put it simply people bring their nationality into their self identity to where a slight against a nation is considered a slight against the individual.
    But still, what does strict individualism have to do with extreme nationalism? I don't deny the above statement, but it sounds more like a group think mentality rather than individualistic one.

  9. #49
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    But still, what does strict individualism have to do with extreme nationalism? I don't deny the above statement, but it sounds more like a group think mentality rather than individualistic one.
    Except it all arises from that individualistic thinking. When your chief interest involves what is best for you as an individual you naturally learn to get that out of others even if it as their expense. For the individual to disregard the interests of the collective is no better than for the collective to disregard the interests of the individual.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

  10. #50
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    Re: Is extreme nationalism really a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Is racism and anti-semitism good things? Is ethnic cleansing and genocide good things?
    Racism is the perverse and toxic notion that, as a white American, I should have more in common with the white German than with the black American. It is the belief that according to some arbitrary sociological construct with pseudo-scientific justification, I should have more loyalty to strangers than to members of my own family. It replaces culture and heritage with genome, and as such I find it is as offensive to culture and heritage as your liberal equivocation of these things.

    Anti-Semitism is tied up in a number of things, ranging from racial discrimination to religious discrimination to nationalism. I'm not opposed to it in principle, but Jews have always been a proud and productive part of the American national fabric and I would be opposed to the efforts of any group which desired to deny or change that.

    I have no problems with genocide as carried out in the course of a war, and consider it nothing more than the logical endpoint of any war that is not ended for other reasons.

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