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Thread: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

  1. #171
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are typically assimilation times necessary for immigrants to become "Americanized" for lack of a better term. I do not want to be beholden to the ideals and needs of other States. The POTUS needs to be concerned with American ideals and needs. Nothing prevents any given individual candidate from being able to know and understand it. Perhaps someone who is a first gen immigrant can understand that and uphold those ideals. But that's not a given. In fact if you look at the aggregated statistics you see that it is not the generalized case. Given this fail mode and the fact that we have plenty of individuals born and raised here whom are equally qualified, it seems unnecessary to me to open up the process to foreigners.
    And as shown by the hypothetical Obama example it is entirely possible that natural-born citizens will have the same handicap. "American Values" is a nebulous term that varies wildly from region to region. This reasoning means that a person is being barred from the Presidency due to what they might think instead of their qualifications. Should we ban FDLS Mormons or Amish from running, because their culture is so different from the American Mainstream?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There is that off chance, but I'd be more willing to say that there is a time necessary for growing up in this country to become aware of all the American idiosyncrasies. Our ideals and values and what we wish to uphold. These sorts of ideals vary widely across nations. Someone "fresh off the boat" may not grasp those finer details (just as we may not be able to understand the ideals of other places). The idea of having natural born citizens only being allowed to run for POTUS is, in part, to isolate ourselves from some of those affects.
    As I stated, a person growing up in one part of the country may still be unable to understand the idiosyncrasies of the entire country. A person who has lived their entire life in Berkley, CA will have a difficult time adjusting the the culture of West Virginia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I see no reason why we should remove the interlock. We have plenty of qualified individuals already here who can do the job just as well; we do not need to open ourselves up to foreign influence.
    I do not see it as a huge issue, and a Constitutional Convention on just this issue seems like a waste of time, but the restriction can hold out some well qualified candidates as well.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  2. #172
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    And as shown by the hypothetical Obama example it is entirely possible that natural-born citizens will have the same handicap. "American Values" is a nebulous term that varies wildly from region to region. This reasoning means that a person is being barred from the Presidency due to what they might think instead of their qualifications. Should we ban FDLS Mormons or Amish from running, because their culture is so different from the American Mainstream?
    I missed that thing with Obama. I think that it becomes well tougher to restrict from office naturally born Americans even though there is still the possibility of value confusion. That's a good term, I should use it a lot more. Heheh. Anyway, people naturally born you can't really say "well take this test and we'll see if your values are proper enough to run for this office". However, it is possible to make that clear cut distinction between naturally born and naturalized. It's a lot harder for someone born and raised in central Colorado to be influenced by the idealism and politics of say France. But a French citizen who becomes naturalized as a US citizen may not have fully divorced him/herself from the idealism and politics of their native country. While on the individual level it could happen, aggregated over the whole we see that it doesn't. In the end because we have enough capable and qualified candidates already here, it doesn't seem prudent to confuse the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    As I stated, a person growing up in one part of the country may still be unable to understand the idiosyncrasies of the entire country. A person who has lived their entire life in Berkley, CA will have a difficult time adjusting the the culture of West Virginia.
    Until we Lex Luthor California. Then it won't be a problem. Heheh. But yes, values can vary across the States wildly yet even more so nation to nation. That in and of itself, though, does not prove the point. It's already difficult to corridnate ideals and values between the many states. It would be even harder if we start enveloping foriegn values and political agendas into our own.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I do not see it as a huge issue, and a Constitutional Convention on just this issue seems like a waste of time, but the restriction can hold out some well qualified candidates as well.
    It may hold out some well qualified candidates, but we are not hurting for well qualified candidates. We already have enough well qualified candidates as stands. This is just something we don't need to outsource.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    Anyone should be able to run for president. Just a matter of them getting elected.

    Does being born in Texas exclude you from running for governor in... Alabama? New York? Rhode Island? Seems there'd be just as large a conflict of interest there as there would be between someone born in the UK/Australia/whatever running for President of the US.

    Of course they should be able to.
    The principle that the people should decide who is president seems to be a difficult one for some people.

    Is that Tom Paine as your avatar? The man who was credited by several founding fathers as being the inspiration for the American Revolution was of course too "foreign born" for some and remains so today.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  4. #174
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Enough of this ridiculous, GOP propaganda, move on to a new subject, get a life, get laid...

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    The principle that the people should decide who is president seems to be a difficult one for some people.

    Is that Tom Paine as your avatar? The man who was credited by several founding fathers as being the inspiration for the American Revolution was of course too "foreign born" for some and remains so today.
    All of the founding fathers were "foreign born", since the USA didn't exist before it was founded. However, the founding fathers understood that and added this little jewel to the constitution:

    "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

    Pretty simple to me. No reason to change it.

  6. #176
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I missed that thing with Obama.
    Didn't say that he was "anti-colonial". I do not consider him any less "American" than you or me. I used the hypothetical to show that a person born in this country can still have the same mindset that you want to keep out of Presidential politics. However, Obama was raised in a foreign country during a very formative time in his life. His situation is in many ways similar to those of an immigrant, but he is acceptable to run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think that it becomes well tougher to restrict from office naturally born Americans even though there is still the possibility of value confusion. That's a good term, I should use it a lot more. Heheh. Anyway, people naturally born you can't really say "well take this test and we'll see if your values are proper enough to run for this office". However, it is possible to make that clear cut distinction between naturally born and naturalized. It's a lot harder for someone born and raised in central Colorado to be influenced by the idealism and politics of say France. But a French citizen who becomes naturalized as a US citizen may not have fully divorced him/herself from the idealism and politics of their native country. While on the individual level it could happen, aggregated over the whole we see that it doesn't. In the end because we have enough capable and qualified candidates already here, it doesn't seem prudent to confuse the matter.

    Until we Lex Luthor California. Then it won't be a problem. Heheh. But yes, values can vary across the States wildly yet even more so nation to nation. That in and of itself, though, does not prove the point. It's already difficult to corridnate ideals and values between the many states. It would be even harder if we start enveloping foriegn values and political agendas into our own.
    I would say that an FDLS member is far more out of touch with the American mainstream than a typical Canadian-American. You cannot draw a distinct line. The campaign cycles are dragging out to be be almost two years long at this point. This should be ample time for people to be able to tell if an immigrant is well integrated or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It may hold out some well qualified candidates, but we are not hurting for well qualified candidates. We already have enough well qualified candidates as stands. This is just something we don't need to outsource.
    I certainly beg to differ.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  7. #177
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    You can beg to differ, but I think it's maybe a bit hyperbole to say that in the over 300 million people we have that we don't have enough well qualified players to play the field. We do. Now we may be picking out the jerks and liars and scumbags right now to run. But that doesn't mean we don't have a lot of well qualified candidates; we just don't choose them. So why open ourselves up to foreign influence when what would most likely happen is that we just take foreign jerks and liars and scumbags?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You can beg to differ, but I think it's maybe a bit hyperbole to say that in the over 300 million people we have that we don't have enough well qualified players to play the field. We do. Now we may be picking out the jerks and liars and scumbags right now to run. But that doesn't mean we don't have a lot of well qualified candidates; we just don't choose them. So why open ourselves up to foreign influence when what would most likely happen is that we just take foreign jerks and liars and scumbags?
    And why limit ourselves to natural-born citizens, if immigrants can do the job just as well? Voters can pick candidates that are unqualified for a whole of reasons, but I do not see why a potential handicap warrants barring the candidate, but a whole mess of others do not.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    And why limit ourselves to natural-born citizens, if immigrants can do the job just as well? Voters can pick candidates that are unqualified for a whole of reasons, but I do not see why a potential handicap warrants barring the candidate, but a whole mess of others do not.
    Why? Cause there's no need to do otherwise. There are plenty of native born Americans who can do the job. Why outsource?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #180
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    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why? Cause there's no need to do otherwise. There are plenty of native born Americans who can do the job.
    Why ban immigrants? It seems odd that a Libertarian such as yourself use this argument to keep a government restriction in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why outsource?
    It's not outsourcing if they are naturalized citizens.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

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