View Poll Results: Should they?

Voters
159. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    49 30.82%
  • no

    100 62.89%
  • other

    10 6.29%
Page 13 of 25 FirstFirst ... 3111213141523 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 242

Thread: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

  1. #121
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Strictly in "official" terms. Why does the US then regard one as an erstwhile ally while another as a potential adversary? And establish the American Institute in Taiwan as its de facto embassy?



    Taiwan is not a person. Not everyone (in fact the vast majority of Taiwanese people don't) agree with the One-China principle.



    Taiwan exercises DE FACTO sovereignty over itself. Ma is the president. Hu is not the President of Taiwan in any realistic sense of the word.
    Do you really think that the overwhelming will of the Chinese people to see Taiwan as part of the motherland is deflected by the USA supporting the Taiwanese?

    Only to the extent that China values its trading relationship with the world. Taiwan's "de facto" sovereignty is largely permitted by a Chinese leadership that sees no self interest in forcibly occupying its rogue province. This can change at any time if China is pushed into a nationalist posture by other events and Americans should not underestimate the PRC's mindset on this issue. China is an emerging nation that still smarts from her historical (19th Century) humiliation at the hands of imperialist powers, inlcuding the USA. Maybe you and I think they should get over this, but China is a nation which values its face highly, maybe too highly.

    Progressive elements in China see Taiwan as a potential Hong Kong... a territory which gives a lot of benefit to China's development through its democracy and free markets. This is why I support Taiwan and hope that its peaceful development of relations with the Mainland will continue. This is why Western democracies support Taiwan too.

    Taiwan being a democracy should be seen as an entity whose official position is taken seriously, not just dismissed by you in favour of the minority on the island who favour independence.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 02:55 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  2. #122
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Do you really think that the overwhelming will of the Chinese people to see Taiwan as part of the motherland is deflected by the USA supporting the Taiwanese?
    What does it matter what the Chinese people want? China does not exercise any REAL sovereignty over Taiwan, and the vast majority of Taiwanese people don't want China to exercise sovereignty over them either.

    Taiwan being a democracy should be seen as an entity whose official position is taken seriously, not just dismissed by you in favour of the minority on the island who favour independence.
    I happen to be Taiwanese-American. And I can tell you, though many Taiwanese people favor closer economic ties with China, virtually nobody supports Chinese political control of Taiwan. They only support the idea of "one China" in a cultural sense.

  3. #123
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    I nowhere suggested that the PRC government should control Taiwan. I pointed out that the majority of Taiwanese and the Taiwanese government stand for one China, politically as well as culturally, which is why there is agreement on territorial disputes with Japan for example. This does not mean that Taiwan cannot exist for quite some time with its political system alongside China's. It does not rule out a one nation two (or three) systems approach at some future date. And given that Taiwanese people (the majority) see themselves as "Chinese" then clearly what the "Chinese people" think has some relevance. Of course I don't expect Taiwanese separatists to acknowledge any of this.

    On the subject of this thread, the President of the "Republic of China" was born in the "Republic of China", by its own definitions. By the definitions of the international community he was also born in People's Republic of China where he rules an autonomous province.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  4. #124
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Taiwan is a province of China and is recognized as such by most of the world, including the USA, through administrations both Democrat and Republican.

    And Taiwan agrees to the principle that there is one China and not a separate "country" called Taiwan. They just think Ma is its president. So even according to Taiwan, its President was born in the country, Hong Kong being part of "one China".

    I hope that Taiwan continues to be a democratic force for good within the People's Republic of China.
    Ummm... on what basis did China gain sovereignty over Taiwan. And I have news for you, most Taiwanese people do NOT regard Taiwan as a part of China. Furthermore, the U.S. DOES NOT regard Taiwan as a Province of China. It says it "acknowledges" the position of the Chinese "on both sides of the strait" but it neither recognzies it nor does it say anything about what the Taiwanese say. Former President Lee Tung Hui called the relations "state to state" and under President Chen, the policy was "one state on each side of the strait" and even the current President Ma states that the Republic of China is an independent state and that Taiwan's future can only be charted by the people of Taiwan.

    Please inform yourself before you parrot ChiCom propoganda.
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  5. #125
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Do you really think that the overwhelming will of the Chinese people to see Taiwan as part of the motherland is deflected by the USA supporting the Taiwanese?
    The opinion of China's people (in reality shaped by the propoganda of the CCP in China) is completely irrelevant in terms of international law and the legitimate rights of the Taiwanese people under international law.

    Only to the extent that China values its trading relationship with the world. Taiwan's "de facto" sovereignty is largely permitted by a Chinese leadership that sees no self interest in forcibly occupying its rogue province. This can change at any time if China is pushed into a nationalist posture by other events and Americans should not underestimate the PRC's mindset on this issue. China is an emerging nation that still smarts from her historical (19th Century) humiliation at the hands of imperialist powers, inlcuding the USA. Maybe you and I think they should get over this, but China is a nation which values its face highly, maybe too highly.
    Taiwan is not a "rogue province" or "renegade province" as English language translations emergering out of China typically use (though either would be an acceptable translation from the Chinese). The problem is for China that no Han dynasty ever controlled the island. Only when BOTH China and Taiwan were conquered by foreigners (the Manchus) were both part of the same entity. Furthermore, the Qing Dynasty signed away its rights to Taiwan in 1895, never to regain them by its fall in 1911/12. Under international law, a signed and ratified treaty is required to transfer land from one state to another state. The San Francisco Peace Treaty did not effectuate a transfer of sovereignty.

    Progressive elements in China see Taiwan as a potential Hong Kong... a territory which gives a lot of benefit to China's development through its democracy and free markets. This is why I support Taiwan and hope that its peaceful development of relations with the Mainland will continue. This is why Western democracies support Taiwan too.
    However, Taiwan AND ONLY Taiwan and its people have the right to chart Taiwan's future.

    Taiwan being a democracy should be seen as an entity whose official position is taken seriously, not just dismissed by you in favour of the minority on the island who favour independence.
    The vast majority of Taiwan's people ALREADY regard Taiwan as an independent state and not a part of China. And those people DO NOT want Taiwan to be absorbed by China. You would perhaps note the drop in the fortunes of the KMT in recent elections. While its closer relations with Beijing is not the ONLY reason for their reversal of fortunes, but it is generally considered the most important reason.
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  6. #126
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    I nowhere suggested that the PRC government should control Taiwan. I pointed out that the majority of Taiwanese and the Taiwanese government stand for one China, politically as well as culturally, which is why there is agreement on territorial disputes with Japan for example. This does not mean that Taiwan cannot exist for quite some time with its political system alongside China's. It does not rule out a one nation two (or three) systems approach at some future date. And given that Taiwanese people (the majority) see themselves as "Chinese" then clearly what the "Chinese people" think has some relevance. Of course I don't expect Taiwanese separatists to acknowledge any of this.
    Actually, the majority of Taiwanese do NOT stand for one China and most Taiwanese refer to themselves as citizens of Taiwan but NOT 中國人 (meaning Chinese in terms of state nationality) but rather as 華人 (Chinese in a racial/cultural sense).

    On the subject of this thread, the President of the "Republic of China" was born in the "Republic of China", by its own definitions. By the definitions of the international community he was also born in People's Republic of China where he rules an autonomous province.
    Hong Kong was never part of the ROC, though one most note that there was a similar 'birther' phonemenon here as there is in the U.S., though not as prevalant and it is pretty much a dead issue now. He was not born in the PRC either as Hong Kong was a British colony at the time he was born.
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  7. #127
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    ludahai

    Maybe I was unfairly flippant with my initial remark. However on the narrow issue you have to admit that the President of the Republic of China was born in the Republic of China according to the territorial claims of the government of Taiwan.

    I personally do not know the answer to the question as to whether Taiwan should be independent or not. It is not a matter for me, even though I am a resident and taxpayer in China. Personally I don't like nationalism and prefer the status quo when it comes to nation states, and look for democracy to devolve powers to local communities so that "sovereignty" is largely irrelevant. So I have no problem with the devolution of power to Taiwan. In fact, it being a democracy I would prefer the PRC to improve relations more and more acknowledging the status of Taiwan as an autonomous self governed island.

    But it is clear that Taiwan still regards itself as the seat of the government of China and on this my views are clear. It is not. The Republic of China founded by Sun Yat Sen was superseded by the PRC. Whether peoples views were manipulated by Mao Zedong or Chiang Kai Shek, the overwhelming majority of the people of China embrace the PRC. And I think it is reasonable that, if Taiwan regards itself as the seat of the government of China, for the separatist position to be set aside in this dialogue until that changes in Taiwan. If there is one China as the ROC government asserts, then its leader is undoubtedly Hu Jintao and not Mr. Ma.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 05:31 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  8. #128
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Actually, the majority of Taiwanese do NOT stand for one China and most Taiwanese refer to themselves as citizens of Taiwan but NOT 中國人 (meaning Chinese in terms of state nationality) but rather as 華人 (Chinese in a racial/cultural sense).



    Hong Kong was never part of the ROC, though one most note that there was a similar 'birther' phonemenon here as there is in the U.S., though not as prevalant and it is pretty much a dead issue now. He was not born in the PRC either as Hong Kong was a British colony at the time he was born.
    Ma himself regards himself as the President of the ROC which includes China and Hong Kong according to the One China policy. You may disagree with him of course being a Tiawan separatist. He is the elected President.

    I think that China (ROC and PRC) has always regarded ethnically Chinese (Han and Hakka in this case) people born in Hong Kong (or anywhere else) to be Chinese. Having said that you are right that Ma was born on territory which was at the time sovereign territory of the UK in perpetuity, it lying within Kowloon and so the matter is less clear than I suggested. Still he is the President of a country and he maintains that he was born within that country. Not really the same as Arnie.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  9. #129
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    ludahai

    Maybe I was unfairly flippant with my initial remark. However on the narrow issue you have to admit that the President of the Republic of China was born in the Republic of China according to the territorial claims of the government of Taiwan.
    Actually, this is a matter of some controversy here. The ROC did NOT regard Hong Kong as ROC territory, so he technically was NOT born in the ROC. However, at that time, the ROC granted citizenship to people who came to Taiwan from either China or Hong Kong at that time. (though most of them were born in China when it was regarded as the ROC or the Qing Dynasty).

    I personally do not know the answer to the question as to whether Taiwan should be independent or not. It is not a matter for me, even though I am a resident and taxpayer in China. Personally I don't like nationalism and prefer the status quo when it comes to nation states, and look for democracy to devolve powers to local communities so that "sovereignty" is largely irrelevant. So I have no problem with the devolution of power to Taiwan. In fact, it being a democracy I would prefer the PRC to improve relations more and more acknowledging the status of Taiwan as an autonomous self governed island.
    There is no need for devolution of power to Taiwan. Taiwan already is sovereign. The PRC has no authority here and our government has no authority in China, and I prefer it that way, as do most Taiwanese. Taiwan is not only self-governed, but in reality, China really doesn't have any legal claim to the island.

    But it is clear that Taiwan still regards itself as the seat of the government of China and on this my views are clear. It is not. The Republic of China founded by Sun Yat Sen was superseded by the PRC. Whether peoples views were manipulated by Mao Zedong or Chiang Kai Shek, the overwhelming majority of the people of China embrace the PRC. And I think it is reasonable that, if Taiwan regards itself as the seat of the government of China, for the separatist position to be set aside in this dialogue until that changes in Taiwan. If there is one China as the ROC government asserts, then its leader is undoubtedly Hu Jintao and not Mr. Ma.
    But two years ago, that was NOT the case, and it is very likely two years from now we will elect a government that will resume the policies of the Lee/Chen era, where the government of Taiwan regarded relations with China to be one between states. Even Ma gives lip service to the notion that the ROC and PRC are two separate states and that the two are not the same. Hu most certainly is not the leader of Taiwan. He has no authority here and we don't pay taxes to Beijing, but rather to Taipei.
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  10. #130
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Should individuals born in foreign countries be able to run for president?

    In HK we don't pay taxes to Beijing either. Anyway we have digressed enough. This was a conversation I learned from even if I haven't changed my views very much. I am not that much in disagreement with you on the substance. This is all about form.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

Page 13 of 25 FirstFirst ... 3111213141523 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •