View Poll Results: should this person be allowed to purchase a gun?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes; their 2nd ammendment rights should not be infringed no matter their stated purpose

    0 0%
  • No; such statements are clearly beyond the protection of the 2nd ammendment

    17 89.47%
  • Maybe; their comment should be given weight in the background check

    1 5.26%
  • Other--please explain

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

  1. #11
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Your example is not applicable.

    If someone said that when attempting to purchase a weapon, no sane gun merchant would sell them even a pocket knife. The guy has committed a crime by apparently planning to kill people, I would think.

    The suggestions of gathering info and making an excuse to go into another room to call police seem the best option.

    Stupid, poll is stupid.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Duh. Ever hear of aiding and abetting?

    The clerk should say his store has a 3-day waiting period for purchase; help the customer out; get as much information as he can from him; then call the police and turn over the store surveillance video. The guy's obviously two donuts short of a dozen.

    That, exactly. Furthermore, that's what most (nearly all) gun store owners would do. Even if they were ruthlessly mercantile, they'd have enough sense not to want to incur and aiding-and-abetting charge in almost all cases.

    I mean, come on. This is a bit silly.

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  3. #13
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Everyone keeps talking about a background check. There should not be a background check involved in the first place.

    But I agree with the other posters who've said that the gun store owner has a responsibility not to sell to this deranged person, and to attempt to delay them long enough for the police to arrive.

  4. #14
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    OP, I don't think you're going to find anyone that believes that the Second Amendment protects your right to commit a crime.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  5. #15
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    OP, I don't think you're going to find anyone that believes that the Second Amendment protects your right to commit a crime.
    You'd be surprised how many gun haters whine otherwise. for example, when someone mentions the second amendment lots of hoplophobes counter with their right to be safe from "gun violence"



  6. #16
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I am generally against gun control except in some common-sense cases (previous seriously violent offenders probably shouldn't be allowed to own guns). However, an idea came to me and I thought it would be interesting to consider. Suppose the following conversation happens at a sporting-goods store or gun dealership:

    Customer: I need a really big gun.
    Dealer: Rifle or shotgun?
    Customer: No, a handgun, or maybe an assault rifle...I'm afraid I don't know much about assault rifles, though.
    Dealer: So, a large-caliber handgun. We have several .45 caliber pistols, and we've got a .44 caliber magnum over here.
    Customer: The bigger the better, because I'm going to kill a bunch of people and when I shoot them, I want to make sure they're dead.
    Dealer: Uh, what?
    Customer: I'm need a gun because I'm going to shoot a lot of people. I'm going to go into the mall downtown and just shoot people. Women and children, men, infants, old people, whoever happens to be there. I'm going to blow some people's heads off.

    Should this person be excluded from purchasing a gun, given their stated intention?
    Are you for real??? Are you really for real??
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  7. #17
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    You'd be surprised how many gun haters whine otherwise. for example, when someone mentions the second amendment lots of hoplophobes counter with their right to be safe from "gun violence"
    That's because they don't realize that the best way to be "safe from gun violence" is to own and carry a gun.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  8. #18
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    To answer some of the points raised:

    1) I agree that the person should not be sold a gun (see below).

    2) I was expecting that there might be at most one or two people that think he should still have the right to purchase a gun, but am not surprised that so far no one has said so.

    3) The poll and question are not stupid, however. While this may seem like a very common-sense example, it raises some issues in a more general sense. First, I don't think that merely stating an intent to commit murder is actually a crime. If the hypothetical customer had had a confederate and had made concrete plans, and then taken any step to carry out those plans (including trying to buy a gun), then that would be conspiracy to commit a felony. If he had no confederates, however, it wouldn't be a crime--merely a statement of an intent to commit a crime.

    Consider the analogous case which someone brought up, and which has featured so prominently in the history of American jurisprudence: freedom of speech does not give someone the right to start a panic by yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. But in this case, clearly the instrument to do so cannot be witheld from the person, and they can only be punished after the fact. In this instance, a person's rights can reasonably be curtailed before the fact. Even if stating an intent to commit a crime is a crime, what we're really worried about is the person taking their gun and then using it to kill people; if we decide they shouldn't be sold a gun, that is the reason why. We wouldn't be nearly so concerned about someone who said those sorts of things but then who we could know, via whatever means, would never use a gun to commit a crime.

    I would put it to you all that it's probably not too difficult to find instances of someone selling a gun to someone they suspected or should have suspected might intend to commit a crime, and then who actually did commit a crime with that gun. So if we were to legislate so as to place some responsibility on the seller of the gun, what rule could we use that would prevent curtailment of rights in similar cases of suspected misuse? Would we not, if we just went with the commonsense method, open the door to punishing someone suspected of abusing the right to free speech before they actually did?

  9. #19
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican
    That's because they don't realize that the best way to be "safe from gun violence" is to own and carry a gun.
    There are two golden rules of a gunfight. The first is this: Guns do not make you bulletproof.

    That said, I would definitely agree that if a criminal had a reasonable expectation that he'd be confronted with a gaggle of armed citizens if he tried something like bank robbery, it'd surely tend to deter petty bank robbery (but might also increase incidents of bank robbery plus slaughter).

  10. #20
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    Re: Gun control poll--read and select all that apply

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    There are two golden rules of a gunfight. The first is this: Guns do not make you bulletproof.

    That said, I would definitely agree that if a criminal had a reasonable expectation that he'd be confronted with a gaggle of armed citizens if he tried something like bank robbery, it'd surely tend to deter petty bank robbery (but might also increase incidents of bank robbery plus slaughter).
    When asked the best way to win a gun battle, the legendary gunslinger Wyatt Earp said, "That's easy, don't show up for it."

    However, statistically, carrying a gun makes you FAR more likely to survive a violent encounter. No one is claiming to be bulletproof. We just stack the deck in our favor as best we can.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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