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Redistribution of Wealth

Redistribution of Wealth

  • Total voters
    42
TurtleDude said:
you cannot disprove it. and you have no solutions that have any rational basis

those who are falling behind often engage in poor life choices. If you

1) stay in HS until you graduate
2) avoid doing drugs and associating with those who do
3) do not have children until you are married

your chances of being poor are about 2%.

Now none of the above require the rich to pay taxes or government intervention.
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Nobody here has to disprove anything you allege or claim. That responsibility - to provide support and evidence for the claim - is upon the person who makes the allegation or claim - and that would be you.
 
haymarket said:
Which is a blatant lie. The unions and middle class have led this country to tremendous leaps in job productivity over the last decade and their reward has been lowered or stagnant wages if they are fortunate and job loss if they are not. What about this situation do you not get? Or is it that your ideology prohibits you from even trying to get it?

Mu solution is to take a page from the Founding Fathers who wrote our Constitution and employ the tools they gave us to protect American markets and American jobs. You remember those guys . right?
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Yeah and if those guys were alive today-most of the dem leaders and the RINOS would have been shot for treason or banished to another nation. Those people did not want non landowners voting-they feared the mob as much as the British Crown and what was the statement one made

The country is doomed when the masses realize they can vote themselves the contents of the public treasury?

can you prove that Unions are responsible for this alleged jump in productivity versus new technology and computer driven manufacturing methods?
 
haymarket said:
Nobody here has to disprove anything you allege or claim. That responsibility - to provide support and evidence for the claim - is upon the person who makes the allegation or claim - and that would be you.
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you need to prove the many dubious claims you constantly make. Your main tactic is to say because something exists it is proper
 
TurtleDude said:
you need to prove the many dubious claims you constantly make. Your main tactic is to say because something exists it is proper
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What claims have I made that I have not supported? Today I started a thread which made the claim that all Americans pretty much pay the same percentage of their income towards government taxes. I supported it with a detailed study of the issue. I do back up my claims.

What you are now attempting to do is what you have done in the past: when you get caught and you cannot provide anything but your own belief system to back you up, you attack those who ask for independent evidence from an authoritative source to support your claims. And that is where we are now and we are still waiting for it to happen.

So far, all you have provided is your claim based on your beliefs and nothing more. You have made claims about nations and wealth and historical trends. So please support these claims with evidence.
 
TurtleDude said:
what is your solution? taxing the rich more and telling the average citizen that he has no duty to pay for more and more government services that make him more and more dependent on the government?
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The whole point of government services is that they are paid for by the public, not by the user. Spending money on education, health care, and crimefighting are not just expenses...they are investments in society to alleviate the social ills associated with poverty.

TurtleDude said:
I'd really like to hear from you all that whine about how bad wealth disparity is what your solutions are.
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1. Better education policies - Introduce school choice, have at least a few pilot programs for vouchers, longer school years/days, and demand teacher accountability. In exchange, better pay for teachers and public recognition of those teachers who do well.

2. Criminal justice reform - End the odious war on drugs, stop locking people up for ridiculously long amounts of time for nonviolent offenses, end mandatory minimum sentencing, and make prisons a place where people can learn some skills or finish high school instead of learning new ways to commit crimes while worrying about daily rapes.

3. Health care reform - Health care expenses are responsible for over 50% of all bankruptcies and many people cannot afford insurance on their own. Additionally, health insurance traps many people at their place of employment, because they can't pursue a new career without losing their health benefits. The new health care laws will help provide assistance for people and give access to health care to the most vulnerable members of society.

4. Financial literacy - Government should take an active role in establishing financial literacy centers in poor communities. Many poor people are very intelligent, but no one has ever taught them the basic skills of how to manage their money. The government can help lift them out of poverty by teaching them these skills...instead of encouraging them to waste their money on state lotteries. Additionally, financial literacy should be a required subject in high schools.

5. Better policing - Many poor communities are plagued by crime. The most effective, proven way to prevent this is through more boots on the ground, not through ridiculous sentencing laws or violations of civil liberties.

6. Financial reform - While establishing financial literacy centers would definitely help poor communities, the government should also prevent businesses from preying on people who don't know any better. The biggest offenders are pay day lenders, credit cards, and banks. Some of the things passed by the 111th Congress have cracked down on some of the most gratuitous abuses, but frankly the new laws still aren't sufficient.

7. Vocational training - States should establish more vocational centers in poor communities to allow people to continue their education throughout their life, in order to pursue a new career. Instead of charging tuition, which many poor people cannot afford, the vocational center could take a percentage of the person's future income for perhaps the first 10 years after they finished the program. This would also shift some of the risk from the student to the state, which is better able to bear it.
 
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TurtleDude said:
Yeah and if those guys were alive today-most of the dem leaders and the RINOS would have been shot for treason or banished to another nation. Those people did not want non landowners voting-they feared the mob as much as the British Crown and what was the statement one made

The country is doomed when the masses realize they can vote themselves the contents of the public treasury?

can you prove that Unions are responsible for this alleged jump in productivity versus new technology and computer driven manufacturing methods?
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And not one word of that rant has anything to do with the issue of American jobs and the decline of the middle class.
 
Kandahar said:
The whole point of government services is that they are paid for by the public, not by the user. Spending money on education, health care, and crimefighting are not just expenses...they are investments in society to alleviate the social ills associated with poverty.



1. Better education policies - Introduce school choice, have at least a few pilot programs for vouchers, longer school years/days, and demand teacher accountability. In exchange, better pay for teachers and public recognition of those teachers who do well.

2. Criminal justice reform - End the odious war on drugs, stop locking people up for ridiculously long amounts of time for nonviolent offenses, end mandatory minimum sentencing, and make prisons a place where people can learn some skills or finish high school instead of learning new ways to commit crimes while worrying about daily rapes.

3. Health care reform - Health care expenses are responsible for over 50% of all bankruptcies and many people cannot afford insurance on their own. Additionally, health insurance traps many people at their place of employment, because they can't pursue a new career without losing their health benefits. The new health care laws will help provide assistance for people and give access to health care to the most vulnerable members of society.

4. Financial literacy - Government should take an active role in establishing financial literacy centers in poor communities. Many poor people are very intelligent, but no one has ever taught them the basic skills as to how they can manage their money. The government can help lift them out of poverty by teaching them these skills...instead of encouraging them to waste their money on state lotteries.

5. Better policing - Many poor communities are plagued by crime. The most effective, proven way to prevent this is through more boots on the ground, not through ridiculous sentencing techniques or violations of civil liberties.

6. Financial reform - While establishing financial literacy centers would definitely help poor communities, the government should also prevent businesses from preying on people who don't know any better. The biggest offenders are pay day lenders, credit cards, and banks. Some of the things passed by the 111th Congress have cracked down on some of the most gratuitous abuses, but frankly the new laws still aren't sufficient.
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1) agree-spending on public education is a "socialist" program I support. However, the federal government's involvement in this is wasteful and unnecessary and I have a jaundiced view of teacher's union having once represented a public school system

2) agree absolutely-the war on drugs not only rapes our country's freedom, it makes people into professional criminals for bogus reasons and turns t hem into either parasites or wards of the state when they get arrested again

3) disagree though I concede that there are no easy answers in this matter. I do state that prevention is far cheaper than dealing with long term problems

4) sounds like a good idea-haven't seen that expressed here before. maybe hs ought to teach that instead of some of the stuff that is less useful

5) absolutely agreed-and stop wasting time busting drug use or prostitution or guys playing cards in the back room of the elk's club

6) some businesses are corrupt-there are laws to deal with that now.
 
haymarket said:
And not one word of that rant has anything to do with the issue of American jobs and the decline of the middle class.
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I already stated what is causing that-you were too busy thinking of your next attack to actually read what I wrote about global economic reality and the opiate of the masses sapping desire and ambition
 
lizzie said:
That's primarily because they DO something to make money, rather than sitting on their asses waiting to be fed.
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Many do very little to earn their wealth. It's more about getting desperate people to work harder for you for less pay, and other tricks when you're at the top. For example, outsourcing of jobs. Getting people in other countries to work as nearly slave labor takes very little effort or thought and dramatically increases profits. Same goes for cutting pay and benefits in a time when people are struggling, while demanding they take on even more responsibility (negatively affecting their health in the process). If done at the right time, your employees aren't likely to abandon you or are easily replaced because of desperation for jobs. Many of the ultra wealthy are leaches who contribute nothing positive to society. They even manage to not pay their fair share of taxes through loopholes and cushy deals with politician buddies. Sure, there's some who make fortunes through legitimate means as hard working, intelligent, principled individuals but it's becoming more and more difficult for those people to stand out.
 
TurtleDude said:
you seem ignorant-again-of global economic reality and the fact is-those who aren't educated in the modern information systems etc aren't going to make good wages like they could 40 years ago by working on a factory line in Detroit.

the rich have always gotten richer. But lots of those in the middle class aren't keeping up with what it takes to remain in the middle class when a Guy in India can do the same job for 6 an hour that someone in an American Union demands 35 an hour to do

what is your solution?
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And the way it is set up, only the rich can afford this higher education you speak of. I agree that education = mo' money. Don't suppose you support making equal education affordable for the poor do you Turtle? Didn't think so. My guess is that you disapprove of the people getting taxpayer grants and scholorships. But I could be wrong.

I get a kick out of the wingnuts when they start their footstompng claims, "The socialist lazy asses want wealth distribution! Oh noes!" When the undeniable facts are that the top 1% (whom the GOP and rightwingers are famous for defending and cowtowing to) has a net worth and financial wealth that has only risen year after year and decade after decade as the moderate and low income population falls. THERE is your wealth distribution. From the hard working stiffs to the irvory hall suits. Yet, somehow, to some of our esteemed wingnuts, this form of wealth distribution is fine and dandy. As long as it comes out of the moderate and poor pockets and ends up in the rich. But any attempt to level the playing field, is a socialist commie plot.

And somehow, the rightwing apologists can't seem to get that into their FAUXNews mush head brains of theirs.

Whatever....

If you really wanna see how our current system favors the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, take a looksy at some numbers of who really rules America. Leave your propaganda bull**** at the door.

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power
 
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TurtleDude said:
Ouch-that's gonna leave a mark

When people whine about the rich getting richer it is one of the stupidest things being said. If you are "rich" it generally means you are making more than you spend. So each year that your are rich, you accumulate a bit more. Now if the rich were not getting richer that would mean the following

1) no one could earn more than they spent
2) taxes were taking everything left over
3) the economy of this country had completely collapsed

I guess that is what Haymarket and his ilk want-either a 100% taxation at a certain level or the economy to completely collapse
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I do not really believe any of this "the rich are getting richer....."
I'll just have to see this for myself, to be the fly on the wall.
I do know that there is only money difference between poor low-life and rich low-life.
One distinguishing attribute of low-life is their abasing/insulting manner, a case is made for 100% taxation, but this solves little.
To me, wealth is a lot more more than money, its human decency, appreciation of the finer things, humility, sharing.
Are the rich doing their share in alleviating human poverty?
 
earthworm said:
I do not really believe any of this "the rich are getting richer....."
I'll just have to see this for myself, to be the fly on the wall.
I do know that there is only money difference between poor low-life and rich low-life.
One distinguishing attribute of low-life is their abasing/insulting manner, a case is made for 100% taxation, but this solves little.
To me, wealth is a lot more more than money, its human decency, appreciation of the finer things, humility, sharing.
Are the rich doing their share in alleviating human poverty?
Click to expand...


hmm....well, the middle class is eroding, that's certain.
 
earthworm said:
I do not really believe any of this "the rich are getting richer....."
I'll just have to see this for myself, to be the fly on the wall.
I do know that there is only money difference between poor low-life and rich low-life.
One distinguishing attribute of low-life is their abasing/insulting manner, a case is made for 100% taxation, but this solves little.
To me, wealth is a lot more more than money, its human decency, appreciation of the finer things, humility, sharing.
Are the rich doing their share in alleviating human poverty?
Click to expand...

Kudos to your sense of value and worth. You are a person after my own heart.

But try explaining that to the bank when the mortgage is overdue.

wealth = assets - liabilities.

All numbers, charts, polls, are derived on monetary gain and not moral fortitude. All data indicates that the only wealth distribution going on in America right now is the distribution of assets from the bottom 80% to the upper 20%. And, if I'm understanding the numbers right, the liabilities are shifting heavily from the top 5-20% to the lower 80%.

The whiners preaching "Libbos want wealth distribution" should be crying, "The libbos want a different type of wealth distribution" instead.
 
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I think the wealth has been redistributed downwards and upwards, away from the middle.
 
TurtleDude said:
I already stated what is causing that-you were too busy thinking of your next attack to actually read what I wrote about global economic reality and the opiate of the masses sapping desire and ambition
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Over the top hyperbole such as "the opiate of the masses sapping desire and ambition" does not come within a thousand miles of honestly talking about the issue of American jobs and the decline of the middle class. And if you even harbor an inkling that it does, it speaks volumes about your detachment from the real world of the American working class in the time we now live.
 
digsbe said:
I think the wealth has been redistributed downwards and upwards, away from the middle.
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We all think lot's of things Digs... You might be right. What do the facts have to say?
 
One of the things that always bothers me about these discussions is that many people talk about "the rich and the poor" as if that was all there was to it; as if there were some sharp dividing line with everybody on THIS side "Poor" and everybody on THAT side "rich".

It is WAY more complicated than that.

There are many levels of "poor", many levels of "rich", and many levels in between.

1. Bill Gates, George Soros, John and Teresa Hines-Kerry, Oprah: The Ultra-Rich.
2. Roger Milliken, and other hard-working industrialists worth hundreds of millions: the Very Rich.
3. Successful medium-scale businesspeople worth tens of millions. The semi-Rich.
4. People worth 1 to 9 million overall, including a lot of retirees and low/mid level business owners, and those with incomes in the 100's of thousands annually: the moderately wealthy.
5. Small business owners, most professionals, many retirees: people with an income around 75-200k.
6. Technicians, skilled labor, successful salesmen, lower-end professionals... income 40-100k annually, but often with a lot of debt. They have their heads above water, but its a narrow margin for most.
7. Semi-skilled labor, less successful salesmen, lots of blue-collar factory workers... 20-50k a year. They've got both ends meeting in the middle but they can't get 'em tied... the "Working poor" in many cases.
8. Unskilled labor, low-end blue-collar, clerks, etc... 15-30k a year. Barely surviving, definitely "working poor".
9. Welfare and food stamps.
10. Homeless.

There are major differences between the Ultra or Very Rich, and the "merely" rich or Moderately Wealthy. If I recall rightly, Teresa Hines-Kerry only paid about 15% taxes annually, or so it was reported a few years ago, since most of her income was capital gains and she has the best tax lawyers and accountants in the country on her side.
OTOH the moderately wealthy, mid-range business owners and professionals are often paying 40% total in taxes, because their income may not be mostly capital gains and they don't have the top-gun tax lawyers and accountants that the Ultra-rich have.
The middle-class gets the big squeeze, IMO.

Then you have the technicians, auto mechanics, lower-end computer gurus, forklift drivers and truckers, etc... they're making it, but the margin by which their head is above water is slim. A lot of these folks get lumped together with the Welfare crowd and this isn't right, as most such folks work very hard indeed and take little or no Gov't handouts. They can't pay more taxes because their margin of success is so slender.

IMO, the Ultra-Rich and Very Rich do indeed get richer regardless. The positions and prosperity of the moderately wealthy and middle-class professionals and business owners is often more precarious than most realize, and they get squeezed hard. Most of the blue-collar working class don't really benefit from "wealth redistribution" because they take pride in being self-supporting and avoid gov't handouts as a matter of pride.

A lot of retirees, just to mention a group that is often forgotten in these discussions, soak up a lot of public funds in the form of medical bennies and programs and social security.... some of them need it, but some of them have a million-dollar portfolio and STILL play the system for every freebie they can get. IMO we need to quit pretending SS/Medicare is "owed because you payed into it", admit that the money has been put in General Fund and spent, admit that SS/Medicare is a form of Welfare, and quit paying millionaire-retirees out of a nearly bankrupt system.
 
Goshin said:
One of the things that always bothers me about these discussions is that many people talk about "the rich and the poor" as if that was all there was to it; as if there were some sharp dividing line with everybody on THIS side "Poor" and everybody on THAT side "rich".

It is WAY more complicated than that.

There are many levels of "poor", many levels of "rich", and many levels in between.

1. Bill Gates, George Soros, John and Teresa Hines-Kerry, Oprah: The Ultra-Rich.
2. Roger Milliken, and other hard-working industrialists worth hundreds of millions: the Very Rich.
3. Successful medium-scale businesspeople worth tens of millions. The semi-Rich.
4. People worth 1 to 9 million overall, including a lot of retirees and low/mid level business owners, and those with incomes in the 100's of thousands annually: the moderately wealthy.
5. Small business owners, most professionals, many retirees: people with an income around 75-200k.
6. Technicians, skilled labor, successful salesmen, lower-end professionals... income 40-100k annually, but often with a lot of debt. They have their heads above water, but its a narrow margin for most.
7. Semi-skilled labor, less successful salesmen, lots of blue-collar factory workers... 20-50k a year. They've got both ends meeting in the middle but they can't get 'em tied... the "Working poor" in many cases.
8. Unskilled labor, low-end blue-collar, clerks, etc... 15-30k a year. Barely surviving, definitely "working poor".
9. Welfare and food stamps.
10. Homeless.

There are major differences between the Ultra or Very Rich, and the "merely" rich or Moderately Wealthy. If I recall rightly, Teresa Hines-Kerry only paid about 15% taxes annually, or so it was reported a few years ago, since most of her income was capital gains and she has the best tax lawyers and accountants in the country on her side.
OTOH the moderately wealthy, mid-range business owners and professionals are often paying 40% total in taxes, because their income may not be mostly capital gains and they don't have the top-gun tax lawyers and accountants that the Ultra-rich have.
The middle-class gets the big squeeze, IMO.

Then you have the technicians, auto mechanics, lower-end computer gurus, forklift drivers and truckers, etc... they're making it, but the margin by which their head is above water is slim. A lot of these folks get lumped together with the Welfare crowd and this isn't right, as most such folks work very hard indeed and take little or no Gov't handouts. They can't pay more taxes because their margin of success is so slender.

IMO, the Ultra-Rich and Very Rich do indeed get richer regardless. The positions and prosperity of the moderately wealthy and middle-class professionals and business owners is often more precarious than most realize, and they get squeezed hard. Most of the blue-collar working class don't really benefit from "wealth redistribution" because they take pride in being self-supporting and avoid gov't handouts as a matter of pride.

A lot of retirees, just to mention a group that is often forgotten in these discussions, soak up a lot of public funds in the form of medical bennies and programs and social security.... some of them need it, but some of them have a million-dollar portfolio and STILL play the system for every freebie they can get. IMO we need to quit pretending SS/Medicare is "owed because you payed into it", admit that the money has been put in General Fund and spent, admit that SS/Medicare is a form of Welfare, and quit paying millionaire-retirees out of a nearly bankrupt system.
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you sound so.....reasonable. thanks.
 
haymarket said:
No doubt about it - the rich are getting richer. Sad day for a sustainable society.
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They aren't getting richer because the taxpayers are giving them money through taxes. They work hard or they were priveledged to be born into a wealthy family.

The wealth has absolutely been redistributed DOWN. Money is removed from the rich and given to the poor. It doesn't work the other way around.
 
MissLToe said:
They aren't getting richer because the taxpayers are giving them money through taxes. They work hard or they were priveledged to be born into a wealthy family.

The wealth has absolutely been redistributed DOWN. Money is removed from the rich and given to the poor. It doesn't work the other way around.
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prove it. please.

The Rich Are Getting Richer

1 – As of 2007, the top 1 percent of all Americans was taking home 24 percent of the national income. This was a level that had not been seen since the days of the Great Depression.

2 – Incomes have been growing in the United States, but those at the very top of the pyramid have been gobbling up almost all of the income growth. According to Harvard Magazine, 66% of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the top 1% of all Americans.

3 – Even official government figures bear out the fact that the rich are getting richer. An analysis of income-tax data by the Congressional Budget Office a few years ago found that the top 1% of all American households own nearly twice as much of the corporate wealth as they did just 15 years ago.

4- Most Americans have suffered during the last few years, but not the boys and girls down on Wall Street. New York state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli says that Wall Street bonuses for 2009 were up 17 percent when compared with 2008.

5 – Even as the number of Americans living in poverty skyrockets, the number of millionaires just keeps growing. In fact, the number of millionaires in the United States rose a whopping 16 percent to 7.8 million during 2009.

6 – The amount of money some of these Wall Street hotshots are making is incredible. Back in 2005, the top 25 hedge fund managers earned a total of 9 billion dollars. That would be bad enough, but even in these hard economic times the rich just keep getting richer. One year after the recent financial collapse the top 25 hedge fund managers earned a total of approximately $25 billion. That breaks down to an average of $1 billion each. The truth is that the United States has been experiencing uneven prosperity for quite some time and things just seem to get worse with each passing year.
 
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MissLToe said:
They aren't getting richer because the taxpayers are giving them money through taxes. They work hard or they were priveledged to be born into a wealthy family.

The wealth has absolutely been redistributed DOWN. Money is removed from the rich and given to the poor. It doesn't work the other way around.
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That is such an epic fail I don't know where to begin. Go do your homework and get back to us.
 
Yes, the rich are getting richer. But WHY? Is it because they're stealing from the poor or they're working hard, putting our products that people want, inventing new things, writing books people want to read, making movies people want to watch, etc.?

What's wrong with making a good living? Why do you seem to hate rich people?
 
MissLToe said:
Yes, the rich are getting richer. But WHY? Is it because they're stealing from the poor or they're working hard, putting our products that people want, inventing new things, writing books people want to read, making movies people want to watch, etc.?

What's wrong with making a good living? Why do you seem to hate rich people?
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Who hates rich people? The question at hand is the current system that is systematically shifting the wealth and income to the top 1/5/20% from the lower 80%. Money begats money as it currently exists. It is unsustainable. Everyone willing to work should be able to prosper and acquire wealth. These "hard working" people you refer to often don't have to work at all. Their riches are making them richer. And it has to come from somewhere. That's the issue at hand. The ill-informed have a tendancy to support those who support the current system as it is. And it is simply unsustainable.
 
I tend to view issues such as these by asking various questions such as "how much is a dollar or a thousand dollars or ten thousand dollars worth to a person?, "What are people doing to earn their income?", "what advantages or disadvantages did they have towards such", and other questions that help me put things in perspective.

As to how much a given dollar amount is worth to a person, a thousand bucks simply isn't worth much to a billionaire, but it can be vital to somebody who is poverty stricken. It is the LACK of money that is more telling, since we should be asking whether such a lack is making the difference between a person eating and not eating, staying warm in the winter or not staying warm, or sending their kids to college or not sending them to college. For many people, the difference of even a million dollars has no discernible effect on their standard of living, and so we need to realize that how money is valued varies with how much money one has.

As to how people earn their money, maybe I'm just a didactic s.o.b. by nature, but I just cannot equate the purchase of a stock option on par with going out for 40 or 50 or 60 hours a week to build something -- especially when 5 minutes of one person's time can net them more than a whole year of hard work on the part of the other. I think capital gains SHOULD be taxed at a much, much higher rate than money earned though the fruits of people's labor.

As to advantages and disadvantages, it is a myth that the playing field is level. It has never been level, and the tilt is only increasing. Those born into money have an easier time than those who don't and for every Horatio Alger story, there are a dozen who grew up affluent, were afforded the opportunity to go to a good school, developed networks with others similarly advantaged, and who are able to milk the system for all it's worth, and all for not actually producing anything, but simply transferring capital this way and that.

The truth of the matter is that the income disparity in our country has been increasing ever since the advent of the Trickle down voodoo that was designed for that very intent. Part of this disparity has been masked by the rising affluence overall, since even though the pieces of the pie have been cut in increasingly large slices for a few and smaller for most others, the pie, itself has grown. As that pie shrinks again, however, and as we face the downturns brought about by the very people who have benefited from trickle down, the smaller slices apportioned most people are having a greater affect on their lives.
 
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