View Poll Results: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

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Thread: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

  1. #51
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Yes, a whole slew does get coverage. Another whole slew doesn't. Being disabled is not a qualification for health care.
    Wait, you're claiming Medicaid doesn't cover people with disabilities?
    27% of the population is *already* treated on someone's dime other than theirs, and likely other than yours. Not enough??

    Either because his employer's insurance only allows cobra for a limited time, or because the cost was prohibitive.
    Cobra can't be denied by the employer, if he's worked 30 years, he can freaking afford it, or he can gamble. His call, not yours, not mine.

    There is no such thing as a "free provider." The only free care is at the emergency room, and that is only free if you simply don't pay your bill.
    There are so many free health care opportunities in the U.S. it's nuts. You have to research to find them, imagine that.
    And you still haven't admitted that someone who worked for 30 years can afford to pay a single doctor consultation visit to work out his drug needs considering that he's already been prescribed.

    You seem to have forgotten that he did have a savings account, and did purchase an individual policy. It is not a case of individual irresponsibility.
    But in your claim he couldn't afford a single, inexpensive doctor visit to get on different meds. Or, pay for Cobra, that covered his pre-existing. You're not making any sense.

    As for the "it's insurance" argument above, that's the problem: It is insurance. Unfortunately, insurance is not what is needed. What is needed is a system that (1) covers everyone, even those with "pre existing conditions", and (2) doesn't keep raising costs to the point that the average person can't afford health care.
    This makes no sense. Healthcare costs rise over time. What are you not getting here? If the average person can't afford it, it's not something the average person should purchase.

    Medical bills are the #1 cause of individual bankruptcy in the US. It doesn't have to be that way, but it is that way. Further, we pay more than any other nation for health care. That is simply not sustainable.
    What does this have to do with pre-existing and Mr. Smith being a poor example? Go off on tangents if you like, I don't have the time to join you in the witch hunt.

    It's all ****ing fun and games if you can force someone else to pay for your half-baked ideas isn't it.

  2. #52
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Wait, you're claiming Medicaid doesn't cover people with disabilities?
    No, it covers the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    27% of the population is *already* treated on someone's dime other than theirs, and likely other than yours. Not enough??
    I'm not sure just how to answer that one. Are you saying that those who can't pay shouldn't have medical care at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Cobra can't be denied by the employer, if he's worked 30 years, he can freaking afford it, or he can gamble. His call, not yours, not mine.
    His call was to gamble, or perhaps his Cobra coverage ran out. Either way, he has no real coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    There are so many free health care opportunities in the U.S. it's nuts. You have to research to find them, imagine that.
    Imagine that. Since you say that there are so many free health care opportunities, perhaps you could back that up. There is no such thing as free health care, except perhaps for Medicaid, which isn't free, but is paid for by you and I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    And you still haven't admitted that someone who worked for 30 years can afford to pay a single doctor consultation visit to work out his drug needs considering that he's already been prescribed.
    Of course he can, but it will take a lot more than a consultation. Further, remembe that he is making perhaps a third of what he made at the Widgetcorp. Still, our Mr. Smith will probalby be OK, so long as he doesn't suffer a stroke in the next ten years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    But in your claim he couldn't afford a single, inexpensive doctor visit to get on different meds. Or, pay for Cobra, that covered his pre-existing. You're not making any sense.
    I am making perfect sense. Cobra only lasts for a while, and is very expensive. Sure, he can go to a doctor, take less expensive meds, and hope for the best. That is the scenario, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    This makes no sense. Healthcare costs rise over time. What are you not getting here? If the average person can't afford it, it's not something the average person should purchase.
    Healthcare costs rise over time, and have risen far faster than the rate of inflation for many years now. That rise is putting the squeeze on employers and slowing the recovery. The burden of health care needs to be lifted from the backs of employers. That alone would do more than any tax cut or stimulus plan to get the economy going and people hired again.

    Doing without health care is not an option. I sense that you are very young, and haven't had to face health issues as yet. Trust me, you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    What does this have to do with pre-existing and Mr. Smith being a poor example? Go off on tangents if you like, I don't have the time to join you in the witch hunt.
    I'm not sure just what point you're making here. There are thousands of Mr. Smiths all over the country just now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    It's all ****ing fun and games if you can force someone else to pay for your half-baked ideas isn't it.
    So, now you've run out of arguments, which isn't surprising.

    One alternative would be for insurance corporations to bid not for individual coverage, but for group coverage. Currently, the only way to get group coverage is to reach the age of 65 or to work for an employer that provides coverage. Further, the individual is at another disadvantage in that the money paid for health insurance is post tax.

    One alternative would be for the governemnt to form groups and allow the companies to compete for their business. They could, for example, cover everyone in a particular geographic area, all for the same fee and without consideration of pre existing conditions. Another good idea would be to allow purchasers of individual policies to do so with pre tax dollars.

    Whatever is done, it needs to cover everyone, take the burden of health care from the employers, and reduce costs.

    And yes, cover everyone means cover pre existing conditions as well.
    Last edited by Dittohead not!; 12-20-10 at 06:44 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That would be a good first step. It woudn't do anything for people with health issues, however. No one would be willing to insure them and cover their health problems.
    plenty of people would be willing to insure them; just to varying degrees not for the condition they already have. that - properly speaking - is not health insurance; it is merely pre-paying health care. but there remain other alternatives. Medishare, for example, is a Christian cost-sharing pool.

    the fact remains, though, that pre-existing conditions are things that have already happened, and are therefore not subject to the economics of insurance. like the oft-cited example, it's akin to trying to get auto insurance after the wreck.

  4. #54
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Not everyone has had the chance to fund their health care. Some are born with health issues. Some experience serious accidents. Do you think we should just let them fend for themselves?

    If you have a serious illness or accident, lose your job, lose your health care, just tough shydt. Suck it up. If you die, you die for the good of society.

    Sure, that's the way to go, sure.
    it's a problem with no perfect solutions, that's to be sure. however, surely it seems like the best of a series of imperfect answers is to provide a means for low-cost insurance (so that the young, healthy, and poor aren't impoverished by it) that still keeps the market mechanisms necessary to drive down costs and doesn't require coercion. such a program would encourage the young into insurance before they ever gained such conditions; as well as providing a real incentive for people to make the changes in their life that they should for health. (are you obese? do you smoke? drink constantly? now it's going to cost you).

  5. #55
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it's a problem with no perfect solutions, that's to be sure. however, surely it seems like the best of a series of imperfect answers is to provide a means for low-cost insurance (so that the young, healthy, and poor aren't impoverished by it) that still keeps the market mechanisms necessary to drive down costs and doesn't require coercion. such a program would encourage the young into insurance before they ever gained such conditions; as well as providing a real incentive for people to make the changes in their life that they should for health. (are you obese? do you smoke? drink constantly? now it's going to cost you).
    Correct, there is no perfect solution.

    The system we have now is not sustainable. Annual cost increases in the double digits can't be sustained over the long term. Employers are finding group coverage unaffordable, and individuals who have issues can't get coverage, sometimes not at any cost.

    So what is the imperfect solution that is better than the current situation? First, costs have to be controlled, second everyone has to be able to get affordable care, and finally, employers have to have that burden lifted.

    One way would be to establish groups that can buy into an insurance plan that is not employer based. If premiums were paid pre tax, most people could afford them and pre existing conditions wouldn't be so much of an issue.

    Another way would be for the government to provide a taxpayer subsidized catastrophic care plan that would cover all Americans.

    I'd like to see them take Medicare, and make some changes:

    First, instead of paying 80% of everything as they do now, pay 100% after a hefty deductible. That way, the patient has to take some responsibility, but no one would have to go bankrupt paying medical costs.

    Second, gradually lower the age of eligibility until everyone can buy in to the program.

    Perhaps we could lower costs to the point of paying out 7 to 12 percent or so of GDP, like most modern nations, instead of 17%.

    We might even do better than the nations that provide for most or all costs with such a program.

    But, alas, that can't happen as long as the insurance lobby is there calling the shots. never mind.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I do not support eliminating preexisting conditions as a governing factor on health insurance.

    It's blindingly obvious to me that any self-respecting business person, were they running a health/medical insurance company, would be derelict of their goal to make a profit did they allow any and all persons to purchase a plan, despite any pre-existing conditions.

    A pre-existing condition, depending on the details of the insurance plan, would potentially mean guaranteed costs that the insurance company would have to pay – while at the same time only reaping the income of the payments the person made.
    It’s basically like an car insurance company allowing someone to purchase full replacement car insurance for their car – After they’ve had a crash.

    It makes no sense in terms of good business.

    Hell, its insurance fraud.
    OK, and its blindingly obvious to me that it would be good business to dump toxic waste into the reservoir and hire hitmen to murder our rivals. But we, as a society, have decided that there are some things that cant be justified just by saying ¨its good business.¨

    This seems to fall firmly into that category. OK, so it makes business sense to use preexisting conditions. So what? Why does that mean it should be legal? Im afraid Im not following your logical train of thought here.

    (Sorry for my typing. Im using a weird Brazilian keyboard in Rio and Im kinda drunk right now.)
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  7. #57
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    I think pre-existing conditions should be handled as such:

    No one should be able to buy insurance for the sole purpose of using the insurance to pay for one condition and then cancelling the plan.

    The best way to handle this is to allow insurance companies to put a 12 month pre-existing condition clause in their plans. Then, allow customers to switch plans with no pre-existing condition clause. This allows for portability, allows for people to have useful insurnance and allows insurance companies to maintain viability.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, and its blindingly obvious to me that it would be good business to dump toxic waste into the reservoir and hire hitmen to murder our rivals. But we, as a society, have decided that there are some things that cant be justified just by saying ¨its good business.¨

    This seems to fall firmly into that category. OK, so it makes business sense to use preexisting conditions. So what? Why does that mean it should be legal? Im afraid Im not following your logical train of thought here.
    forcing insurance agencies to accept anyone with preexisting conditions will destroy the insurance industry so that the rest of us will either be forced into bankruptcy in order to gain what coverage is left, or simply do without.

    clearer now?

  9. #59
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Correct, there is no perfect solution.

    The system we have now is not sustainable. Annual cost increases in the double digits can't be sustained over the long term. Employers are finding group coverage unaffordable, and individuals who have issues can't get coverage, sometimes not at any cost.

    So what is the imperfect solution that is better than the current situation? First, costs have to be controlled, second everyone has to be able to get affordable care, and finally, employers have to have that burden lifted.

    One way would be to establish groups that can buy into an insurance plan that is not employer based. If premiums were paid pre tax, most people could afford them and pre existing conditions wouldn't be so much of an issue.

    Another way would be for the government to provide a taxpayer subsidized catastrophic care plan that would cover all Americans.

    I'd like to see them take Medicare, and make some changes:

    First, instead of paying 80% of everything as they do now, pay 100% after a hefty deductible. That way, the patient has to take some responsibility, but no one would have to go bankrupt paying medical costs.

    Second, gradually lower the age of eligibility until everyone can buy in to the program.

    Perhaps we could lower costs to the point of paying out 7 to 12 percent or so of GDP, like most modern nations, instead of 17%.

    We might even do better than the nations that provide for most or all costs with such a program.

    But, alas, that can't happen as long as the insurance lobby is there calling the shots. never mind.
    if you did this at the state level i wouldn't mind; but i still don't find it in Congress' enumerated powers. the problem is you have just created a powerful incentive for politicians to seek excuses to be consantly lowering the deductible for select groups; and we are left off worse than where we started.

  10. #60
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    Re: Do you think no more preexisting conditions is right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill;105917
    3481
    if you did this at the state level i wouldn't mind; but i still don't find it in Congress' enumerated powers. the problem is you have just created a powerful incentive for politicians to seek excuses to be consantly lowering the deductible for select groups; and we are left off worse than where we started.
    It probably would be better done at the state level. That way, we'd have 50 different versions and be able to compare them. As for the "enumerated powers" that has never stopped Congress from doing anything yet, has it?
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