View Poll Results: How much should cops make in a year, on average?

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Thread: How much should cops be paid?

  1. #151
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Did you not read my post about boyfriend's baby's momma? Apartment complexes in metro areas are high crime sub-neighborhoods. You obviously don't live in a large metropolitan area.
    The sad fact is that I've probably interacted with CPD more frequently than you have.

    Or else, by default, the Chicago area is a danger- and crime-ridden neck of the woods. Tom drives a cab. That apartment subdivision I talked about? He won't even pull in there. They sell drugs, have gangs, rob, assault, yeah, it's all there.
    People who own apartment subdivisions where cab drivers won't even go? ARE SLUM LORDS. I'm very familiar with high crime apartment complexes, I've worked on crime reduction initiatives in areas like Miami, Houston and Los Angeles. The culture of these complexes is almost 100% dependent on the character of the people who own them, and their maintenance/renting decisions.

    Beyond that, I spent 8 years providing direct services to gang members. I've spent a considerable amount of time in their apartments/rental homes/duplexes and the projects. I know what living conditions are like for people who rent in these high crime areas, at firsthand.

    You don't even drive into those neighborhoods, and I've spent the last 20 years working in them.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-14-10 at 05:15 PM.

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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The sad fact is that I've probably interacted with CPD more frequently than you have.
    Why is that sad? That makes absolutely no sense. You are using your own subjective fly-in fly-out experience as if it's expert testimony. It isn't. I live it every day. I read about it every day. Tom sees it every day.

    Nice apartment buildings, well maintained, reasonably priced, can be hotbeds for crime. As a Realtor, I'm here ta' tell you that even my clients know they don't want to live around large rental properties...like more than 2 or 3 sixflats on a block. Maybe you have to live here to understand/believe it. But 'tis true.

    And how about responding to the fact that LEOs/firemen Rank #12 and #13 on the United States' most hazardous professions? ;-)
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #153
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why is that sad? That makes absolutely no sense. You are using your own subjective fly-in fly-out experience as if it's expert testimony. It isn't. I live it every day. I read about it every day. Tom sees it every day.
    When is the last time you set foot in one of these high crime apartments, Maggie? I was in one last month. I worked in them daily for 8 years with the most violent client population.

    Nice apartment buildings, well maintained, reasonably priced, can be hotbeds for crime.
    HOTBEDS for crime? Prove it. I've seen hotbeds for crime, IN MANY CITIES, and they weren't well-maintained or nice. You're claiming that this is a normal level of crime for a single set of properties, and that these properties are also well-maintained and nice. What evidence do you have for this position, other than, "my husband drives a cab and sees things"?

    As a Realtor, I'm here ta' tell you that even my clients know they don't want to live around large rental properties...like more than 2 or 3 sixflats on a block. Maybe you have to live here to understand/believe it. But 'tis true.
    Because those large rental properties, if not property managed by the landlord, can be very dangerous. IT ALL HINGES ON THE MANAGEMENT OF THOSE PROPERTIES, and their business/maintenance strategies. If Gray_Fox has had that level of criminal activity in his rental properties, I guarantee that Chicago PD considers him a problem landlord, which is exactly why he dislikes the cops so very much.

    And, what response do you expect, exactly, to the fact that LEOs are #12 on the danger list? It's a facet of the job, but it's hardly the only reason for paying them like professionals. I've already addressed the salary issue with you, and you've ignored most of it because it doesn't fit into your prejudices.

    I can't really help you with those.

    For the record, you and I have already had a couple of interactions about crime and delinquency in your city, and I corrected your misinformation. So no, I don't consider you a definitive source on the subject.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-14-10 at 05:22 PM.

  4. #154
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    When is the last time you set foot in one of these high crime apartments, Maggie? I was in one last month. I worked in them daily for 8 years with the most violent client population.
    As a Realtor, I've shown them to prospective tenants. I've shown them to prospective purchasers. I've been in plenty. I've walked through their neighborhoods.

    HOTBEDS for crime? Prove it. I've seen hotbeds for crime, IN MANY CITIES, and they weren't well-maintained or nice. You're claiming that this is a normal level of crime for a single set of properties, and that these properties are also well-maintained and nice. What evidence do you have for this position, other than, "my husband drives a cab and sees things"?
    You sure are all head up, Catz. There are absolutely no public statistics for apartment complexes, intentionally. The only way one might get information would be if one would stop in at the local police station and find a friendly officer to discuss. A taxi driver, btw, is one step below firefighters for dangerous occupations. ;-) If you won't accept my anecdotal evidence, why on earth would you expect me to accept yours?? I live here. I live six miles from the particular complex I'm referencing. I've been in it. I read the local papers. Don't what else to tell you. But let's just call you the expert and me the idiot so you can feel better about yourself.

    Because those large rental properties, if not property managed by the landlord, can be very dangerous. IT ALL HINGES ON THE MANAGEMENT OF THOSE PROPERTIES, and their business/maintenance strategies. If Gray_Fox has had that level of criminal activity in his rental properties, I guarantee that Chicago PD considers him a problem landlord, which is exactly why he dislikes the cops so very much.
    Are you even reading Gray's posts? He doesn't own rental property in the city. He owns it in suburban Cook County. Unlike you, I never had the feeling he disliked cops "so much," but that he felt they weren't there for him. I think, from your posts, that you and I just live in two very different worlds. Management can't always handle demographics.

    And, what response do you expect, exactly, to the fact that LEOs are #12 on the danger list? It's a facet of the job, but it's hardly the only reason for paying them like professionals. I've already addressed the salary issue with you, and you've ignored most of it because it doesn't fit into your prejudices.
    I've read consistently on this thread about how dangerous a copper's job is. I agree it can be dangerous. But it's quite clear it doesn't make the top 10. I have no prejudices about LEOs. I like 'em. Always been treated well by them. I think many of them are outstanding human beings. I simply have a keen interest in how my tax dollars are spent.

    I can't really help you with those.
    You don't have to, Catz. You'd be surprised how self-sufficient I am.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  5. #155
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You sure are all head up, Catz. There are absolutely no public statistics for apartment complexes, intentionally. The only way one might get information would be if one would stop in at the local police station and find a friendly officer to discuss. A taxi driver, btw, is one step below firefighters for dangerous occupations. ;-) If you won't accept my anecdotal evidence, why on earth would you expect me to accept yours?? I live here. I live six miles from the particular complex I'm referencing. I've been in it. I read the local papers. Don't what else to tell you. But let's just call you the expert and me the idiot so you can feel better about yourself.
    This is B.S., Maggie. Most police departments, including Chicago PD, have the capacity to map crimes on an extremely detailed level. LOOK. http://gis.chicagopolice.org/ It took me 2 seconds to google it up for you.

    For what it's worth, you and Gray were the ones who made the attacks directed at where I live, and what I know. First, you claimed that I lived in the south and knew nothing. Then you claimed that I was an in-and-out expert. Then you claimed that I was arrogant.

    Alas. I am arrogant. But I also know what I know. And, I know Gray's claims, in this thread, are exaggerated. But hey, he can prove us wrong by using Chicago's online GIS system, at any point.

    So, here's what I know...Based on crime data that I've worked with, a single apartment unit or landlord that experienced those levels of crime would show up as a hot spot in even the most violent areas of the U.S. You're talking Camden, NJ-level violence, with Camden being code word for the most concentrated high crime/small geographic area I've ever worked with (and Chicago ranks far below them in per capita violence).

    You may know Chicago, and I don't doubt that, but there's a lot about Chicago that you clearly don't know (that your crime data is online and geographically mapped down to the street level, for instance).

    Are you even reading Gray's posts? He doesn't own rental property in the city. He owns it in suburban Cook County. Unlike you, I never had the feeling he disliked cops "so much," but that he felt they weren't there for him. I think, from your posts, that you and I just live in two very different worlds. Management can't always handle demographics.
    Again with your assumptions about me. Gray owns rental property in suburban Cook County, but makes claims about an inordinate level of violence centralized in that location. I know what normal crime data looks like, even in an area with an intense gang problem. The levels that Gray describes aren't normal. Of course, Gray has offered zero proof of this level of crime actually occurring in and around his buildings, nor have you.

    And, exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. Again, you've presented zero evidence.

    I've read consistently on this thread about how dangerous a copper's job is. I agree it can be dangerous. But it's quite clear it doesn't make the top 10. I have no prejudices about LEOs. I like 'em. Always been treated well by them. I think many of them are outstanding human beings. I simply have a keen interest in how my tax dollars are spent.
    The danger is part of the job, but it's a professional role requiring a considerable degree of maturity, common sense, and training. That's where the pay comes in. You've just created another strawman. Shockers.

    You don't have to, Catz. You'd be surprised how self-sufficient I am.
    Then demonstrate it. Why don't you start by searching for evidence to back up your claim that multiple violent crimes in a single location is normal for Cook County's suburban areas?
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-14-10 at 05:50 PM.

  6. #156
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    This is B.S., Maggie. Most police departments, including Chicago PD, have the capacity to map crimes on an extremely detailed level. LOOK. CLEARMAP Chicago Police Department Geographic Information System It took me 2 seconds to google it up for you.
    Awesome link. Now if you'll show me one for Addison, Illinois I will pass it along to the hundreds of Realtors who will be delighted to know that such suburban neighborhood statistics exist. (Not kidding about it being awesome for the City of Chicago.)

    For what it's worth, you and Gray were the ones who made the attacks directed at where I live, and what I know. First, you claimed that I lived in the south and knew nothing. Then you claimed that I was an in-and-out expert. Then you claimed that I was arrogant.

    Alas. I am arrogant. But I also know what I know. And, I know Gray's claims, in this thread, are exaggerated. But hey, he can prove us wrong by using Chicago's online GIS system, at any point.
    I made no attacks about where you live and no attacks on what you think you know. I simply don't agree with it. And I believe, in this particular instance, I know more than you do about suburban Chicago. I never called you arrogant. I did call into question your citing your visits to Chicago as evidence of your intimate knowledge of the suburbs within 5 miles of my home.

    So, here's what I know...Based on crime data that I've worked with, a single apartment unit or landlord that experienced those levels of crime would show up as a hot spot in even the most violent areas of the U.S. You're talking Camden, NJ-level violence, with Camden being code word for the most concentrated high crime/small geographic area I've ever worked with (and Chicago ranks far below them in per capita violence).
    I don't disagree with anything in this paragraph.

    You may know Chicago, and I don't doubt that, but there's a lot about Chicago that you clearly don't know (that your crime data is online and geographically mapped down to the street level, for instance).
    What do you not understand about my conversations, as well as Grays, being about suburban Chicago??


    Again with your assumptions about me. Gray owns rental property in suburban Cook County, but makes claims about an inordinate level of violence centralized in that location. I know what normal crime data looks like, even in an area with an intense gang problem. The levels that Gray describes aren't normal. Of course, Gray has offered zero proof of this level of crime actually occurring in and around his buildings, nor have you.

    And, exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. Again, you've presented zero evidence.
    Assaults, gunplay, attempted rape, burglary, yada yada yada are not unusual in large apartment complexes in suburban Chicago. They aren't the rule; but they are enough of a concern that most single-family home buyers will not live in the general area of large apartment complexes. Home values surrounding some of these infamous complexes suffer as a result. We have Section 8 to thank for that.

    The danger is part of the job, but it's a professional role requiring a considerable degree of maturity, common sense, and training. That's where the pay comes in. You've just created another strawman. Shockers.
    I haven't debated with you about police officers' salaries in the last five or six pages -- or more. Our discourse here has been solely about your purporting to be an expert on Chicago Metropolitan Area Apartment Complexes. I joined in when I read your denigration of Gray's post about the crime he has witnessed in and around his own rental properties in suburban Cook County.

    Then demonstrate it. Why don't you start by searching for evidence to back up your claim that multiple violent crimes in a single location is normal for Cook County's suburban areas?
    I never said it was "normal." It's not. But it's not unusual. Gray's post was completely believable. (Don't know about the copper reference. I've certainly never experienced that kind of problem, nor heard of it, in my area.) Why do you find it so freakin' unbelievable that Section 8 tenants could drive up crime in an otherwise quiet suburban community?? That If you are as knowledgeable as you seem to be, you should understand that. I don't know why you don't.

    I did find this: Crime in Addison, Illinois (IL): Murders, Rapes, Robberies, Assaults, Burglaries, Thefts, Auto thefts, Arson, Law Enforcement Employees, Police officers statistics

    It doesn't provide neighborhood stats but has something called a Crime Index Rating. Addison's rating is 182.8. The national average is 318.2. What this doesn't show is that these rapes, thefts, burglaries, robberies, auto thefts and assaults are far more likely to happen in an apartment complex than any other area of the town. Drugs are a huge problem.

    Another telling feature is that adjacent communities who don't have large apartment complexes have much lower ratings. Elmhurst, IL 98.0; my town 98.8. No large apartment complexes in these towns. You'll note that other adjacent communities have higher numbers -- they also have large apartment complexes.

    I define a large apartment complex as either a one-owner large development or a neighborhood that has multiple (like 5 or more) 6-flats side-by-side individually owned by people like Gray.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 12-14-10 at 07:18 PM.
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Catz, I got to thinking about our exchange after I posted the above. I don't want you to think I'm trying to say you're full of ****, because I know you're not. You obviously have a great deal of experience in high crime areas of large cities/metro areas. Certainly a much better understanding of it than I do. I can even say that I agree with you that, in the case of large apartment complexes, the management is probably terrible. And may even contribute to the high crime stats because they just don't care anymore...they just want the apartments filled. (Although with Civil Rights laws, management probably has a harder time than they'd like saying, "No.")

    Individual apartment owners, on the other hand, who find themselves in a block or two neighborhood of other individual apartment owners, for the most part are doing their best. They are trying to protect their investments as best they can. They have to keep their apartments in some modicum of good repair, even if they would choose not to, because they are subject to Section 8 inspections. Individual apartment building owners cannot control the actions of their tenants. Those that urinate in the halls are going to urinate in the halls. Those that are going to let their kids write on the walls of their apartments are going to destroy apartments. Those who leave old food laying around for days at a time are going to have insect problems. The landlords can do little to stop those kinds of behaviors. But that doesn't mean they're slum lords. Most of them are hardworking people just like you and me who are trying to get ahead in the world by buying investment property. Happiest day when they buy it. Happiest day when they sell.

    It PMO that you would see Gray otherwise.
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Maggie:

    Gray reported a serious list of crimes, that ostensibly occurred on his property. Read them again:

    Want me to list of the crimes I have been involved as a landlord?
    Assault
    robbery
    Armed robbery
    Armed assault
    Fraud
    attacks by police officers
    damage to private property numbering in the 1000s
    attempted rape
    attempted murder
    loss of money because tenant would not pay
    I could go on and on.
    Here's Addison's entire crime counts for 2010.

    http://www.addisonpoliceillinois.org...Crimes2010.pdf

    There were only 16 robberies in the city of Addison for the entire year of 2010. There were only 33 aggravated assaults in that year. FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

    Gray reports both assaults and aggravated assaults occurring on his property, along with robbery and "armed robbery" (aggravated assault). Beyond that, he reports assaults by police, attempted rape, and attempted murder (also known as aggravated assault).

    I'm sure it seems like there is a lot of crime in the suburbs of Chicago. You see reports on the news, and it appears to be a dangerous place to live. But in reality, the crime rate in Addison isn't that high. 16 robberies...in an entire year...is extraordinarily low. The number of burglaries in the community are also extrremely low.

    I agree...there are a lot of property crimes in Addison. But there aren't a lot of violent crimes, per capita. And, GRAY CLAIMED TO HAVE HAD A LARGE NUMBER OF VIOLENT CRIMES ON HIS PROPERTY. You can say what you want, but his claims aren't believable...EVEN FOR A LARGE, VIOLENT URBAN AREA, it would be extraordinary to have that kind of clustering in a single area unless it were a slum.

    Sorry. You may know a lot of stuff, Maggie, but you don't know what you're talking about here.

    Do you know Gray in real life? IF not, how do you know his claims are accurate? The crime totals in Addison certainly don't support his claims.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-14-10 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #159
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Maggie:

    Gray reported a serious list of crimes, that ostensibly occurred on his property.

    Here's Addison's entire crime counts for 2010.

    http://www.addisonpoliceillinois.org...Crimes2010.pdf

    There were only 16 robberies in the city of Addison for the entire year of 2010. There were only 33 aggravated assaults in that year. FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

    Gray reports both of these crimes ON HIS PROPERTY.

    I agree...there are a lot of property crimes in Addison. But there aren't a lot of violent crimes, per capita. And, GRAY CLAIMED TO HAVE HAD A LARGE NUMBER OF VIOLENT CRIMES ON HIS PROPERTY.

    You can say what you want, but his claims aren't believable...EVEN FOR A LARGE, VIOLENT URBAN AREA, it would be extraordinary to have that kind of clustering in a single area unless it were a slum.

    Sorry. You may know a lot of stuff, Maggie, but you don't know what you're talking about here.
    That's unfortunate. I gave you an opportunity to be conciliatory. You choose to go for the "I win - you lose." That's okay. I'm pretty used to that here. Few of us are able to find middle ground and back off a bit from their hard-fast positions.

    Everything I've said about the town of Addison and their apartment building complexes is correct. Parse the data any way you wish. The fact remains that apartment building complexes in suburban Chicago are often unsafe to live in, filled with drug dealers, rampant with assaults, burglaries and robberies. The fact remains that individual 6-flat owners cursed with owning in a neighborhood with many other 6-flat buildings are just people like you and me trying to make a living. They experience a much higher crime rate than other neighborhoods in their same town. They are not slum lords.

    I've enjoyed our back-and-forth, Catz. Next time.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 12-14-10 at 09:53 PM.
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    Re: How much should cops be paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    They experience a much higher crime rate than other neighborhoods in their same town. They are not slum lords.
    Except their crime rate really isn't that high, Maggie. I've given you the data. Sixteen robberies in a year is extremely low for this type of area. Are you alleging, then, that a lot of unreported crime goes on there?

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