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Do You believe Noah?

Do you believe Noah?


  • Total voters
    70
Do I believe just anything? No. Do I believe in God and His ability to make such an event take place? Yes. Such faith doesn't require anyone's approval or agreement.

So therefore you believe God is a liar then?

If you believe that God was the reason the testable and demonstrable properties of water no longer applied during the flood, then God hid all of the evidence to such suspension and then placed organisms in the fossil layer as they would have been sorted by natural processes rather then by the new properties of water during a flood?

This is why actual Christians reject the flood story. It requires their God to be a biggest liar of all time. Can the Christian God be perfect yet the biggest deceiver of all time?
 
Erm..how so?

Because there is the common threads of WHY the 'gods' wanted to destroy man... that God had destroyed man previous times to the flood, and Gods warning a select group to prepare for the flood, or guiding them to safety, etc... also the severity of the flood... among a few other things.

But really, it would take too long to go through all the examples and peg them to the regions of the world that were impacted... and since it's all based on stories that originate from probably before there was anyone writing these stories down... and so there's no real way to 'prove' any of it in any conclusive fashion.

I have zero problem with belief. It's when you start trying to get me to accept these things as literal fact that I get edgy

Actually, one piece that caught my eye just before the flood was God telling Noah that he would not remain on the earth forever, and that a man is meant to live to 120 years. The thing is that there's research going on with a genetic explanation of why you never really see anyone live past 120... and that's because something happens on the genetic level and once you reach 120 years that it's the limit. That is, until the technology comes about to repair this damage, meaning that you could extend a persons life...

Which is the one point that I will make, is that there isn't really anything in the bible that is specifically contrary to what we've since learned with science... and while I don't believe the stories to be literally true, I do strongly believe that there is more truth to those stories then we might readily accept.

No...it wouldnt. The ice would burn away into water vapor long before it entered the atmosphere and that much water would actually throw the gravitation of the Earth off and probably knock it out of it's orbit.

Ok, the AMOUNT of water on Earth NEVER changes. Ocean levels rise and fall with the shrinking or growing of the polar ice caps. The bigger the ice caps, the lower the ocean levels. A change in the level of the oceans doesnt actually effect how much water there is on Earth.

Actually, some of the northern european and inuit flood myths include descriptions of god melting the northern ice caps... which wouldn't necessarily mean the whole north pole, but as far as they could see...

In the time-frame (roughly) provided, we have a good idea of what our capabilities were and the ark is not within that range.

Right, but there are also many 'anomalies' on the earth that seem to defy what we know about our capabilities throughout history... for example, we are taught that mankind went from hunter gathering societies to master pyramid builders in essentially a blink of an eye, and EVEN WITH today's technology, we'd be hard pressed to recreate this, also, it's said that they were built within 22 years... and engineers have estimated that this would have required over a million workers per **** working non-stop for those 22 years... AND that doesn't include getting the blocks from the quarries some distance away.

Or, easter island would be an anomaly because at the time they were supposedly built the people hadn't started writing, which was is viewed as a pre-requisite to intricate construction...

Then the Nasca(sp?) lines... and there are others as well...

I'm just saying that what we KNOW about our history may not be accurate...


And that evidence consists of what exactly?

I find it a little odd, but to each their own

Look, I don't know what you expect about 'evidence'... but an example of 'evidence' would be that the sphinx was built to align with specific markers, however, with the timeline we're told some 6000 years ago, with the logic going into the design the sphinx should be a Bull... but if you go back to 11000 years and adjust for the earths wobble, then you get the proper alignment with LEO the lion.

That's the best type of 'proof' you might find... so, it again boils down to a matter of faith.

Simply because something cant be disproven doesn't automatically make it true.

There's no way to prove this all either... it doesn't make it false. The point is that even if the 'events' are untrue but are just stories, well... the stories illustrate univeral truths that go beyond the simple matter of whether god actual exists and the actual state that god exists in... I mean whether god is spiritual, energy, or physical being.

My belief in God is not predicated on whether or not the stories contained within the Bible are "literally" true. I do believe Noah existed and I believe there was a great flood and an ark.

I agree, there was SOMETHING that happened to justify this story, precisely the 'what' I'm not sure. I actually believe that Noah was like a 'clan' that survived around for 900 years worth of generations.

That's as good a demonstration of religious faith as any. Believing something in spite of evidence to the contrary.

There's no more 'evidence' to the contrary then there is evidence in verification. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's hard to even put anything definitive down because the bible can be interpreted in probably 100 different ways, not to mention all aspects of the stories that have been lost in translations.
 
Some people desire to know whats true even if it contradicts what we personally hope or wish is true.

That is fine. I have no issue with that nor do I judge those who claim to seek "truth".


You believe your god gave you a brain right? Why are you so determined to NOT utilize what it provides: reason and logic.

Faith is not about "proof" or "logic". Not much else to say about it. I have faith that these things happened. Just because I don't understand the "how" of it, doesn't diminish my conviction. There is much about this world we do not understand and are not capable of understanding yet. Doesn't make it any less so.


You can BELIEVE whatever you like. That the sky is red, that you are the most beautiful and smart person in the world, etc. Your beliefs are irrelevant to reality. Your beliefs are irrelevant to what any gods did or did NOT do.

You are correct, and the same applies to your perspective as well.

How exactly do you determine what your God(s) did or did NOT do?

1) Unverifiable personal testimonials
2) Personal opinions
3) Writings in old/new promotional literature
4) “Revelations” from “prophets” or “seers”
5) Accounts from wide ranging, independent sources that are in general agreement
6) Accounts from sources that are not connected or involved with the claim or story
7) Findings that have been widely tested and verified by others
8) Findings that you can test personally if you choose

Again, faith is not always "logical". My faith allows me to believe in these things, just as your lack of faith allows you to doubt.
 
funny-pictures-cat-worries-he-has-broken-jesus.jpg
 
Some people desire to know whats true even if it contradicts what we personally hope or wish is true.

That is fine. I have no issue with that nor do I judge those who claim to seek "truth".
So you acknowledge that you would willfully believe that which is false as long as it "feels good" or gives you hope?

Specifically, if there is no god or afterlife, you'd rather remain ignorant to that fact.

You believe your god gave you a brain right? Why are you so determined to NOT utilize what it provides: reason and logic.

Faith is not about "proof" or "logic". [\b]

I agree.

Not much else to say about it. I have faith that these things happened.
I don't doubt you believe they are true. What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief doesn't make it true.

You can have faith in the tooth-fairy, your spouse, etc, but that doesn't mean you "belief" is consistent with reality. You have indicated that you don't care whether your beliefs are consistent with reality (I.E.,true).

That you seem proud of this fact is what doesn't make sense.

Just because I don't understand the "how" of it, doesn't diminish my conviction.
I agree that not knowing how something occurs does not change the fact that such a thing does occur. E.G., I don't know exactly how waves form on the surface of the ocean but that doesn't change the fact that waves do form on the surface of the ocean.

The problem is that your god isn't a fact. Its an idea, a proposal, a concept. One that cannot or has not been verified to exist (unlike waves or other real phenomena or objects). I'm asking how you KNOW your god exists. Not whether you BELIEVE he does. Do you understand?

All you are doing is repeating that you believe he exists (I have faith). This doesn't address how you KNOW. It only addresses WHY you believe.


There is much about this world we do not understand and are not capable of understanding yet. Doesn't make it any less so.
therefore your god MUST/DOES exist?


You can BELIEVE whatever you like. That the sky is red, that you are the most beautiful and smart person in the world, etc. Your beliefs are irrelevant to reality. Your beliefs are irrelevant to what any gods did or did NOT do.

You are correct, and the same applies to your perspective as well.

I disagree. The same does NOT apply to many of my beliefs because many of my beliefs are JUSTIFIED BELIEFS (knowledge) because evidence and reason support them. For example, I have KNOW that things fall downwards (under norma" circumstances) and KNOW that my pen will fall to the ground when dropped. It would be irrational/unreasonable of me to believe things fall upward (under normal circumstances).

How exactly do you determine what your God(s) did or did NOT do?

1) Unverifiable personal testimonials
2) Personal opinions
3) Writings in old/new promotional literature
4) “Revelations” from “prophets” or “seers”
5) Accounts from wide ranging, independent sources that are in general agreement
6) Accounts from sources that are not connected or involved with the claim or story
7) Findings that have been widely tested and verified by others
8) Findings that you can test personally if you choose

My faith allows me to believe in these things, just as your lack of faith allows you to doubt.
You aren't saying anything meaningful. You are just repeating yourself by using synonyms: belief/faith, doubt/lack of faith.

Apparently your belief in your particular god is naked. It is a belief without reason. A belief without justification. A belief without the support of what you know or in spite of what you know. You simply believe. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
So you acknowledge that you would willfully believe that which is false as long as it "feels good" or gives you hope?

What I acknowledge is that I don't have an issue with anyone who claims to seek "truth". In the end such truth may or may not bear with what you or I believe to be the truth.

Specifically, if there is no god or afterlife, you'd rather remain ignorant to that fact.

The problem with this is that there is no way to know with certainty whether there is a God or afterlife until after we die. I choose to believe there is. My choice. Yours is obviously different.


I don't doubt you believe they are true. What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief doesn't make it true.

What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief is not true doesn't make it false.

You can have faith in the tooth-fairy, your spouse, etc, but that doesn't mean you "belief" is consistent with reality. You have indicated that you don't care whether your beliefs are consistent with reality (I.E.,true).

That you seem proud of this fact is what doesn't make sense.

I am not proud of anything. I simply will believe what I will believe and refuse to waver from that. It is fine if you do not agree with it.

I agree that not knowing how something occurs does not change the fact that such a thing does occur. E.G., I don't know exactly how waves form on the surface of the ocean but that doesn't change the fact that waves do form on the surface of the ocean.

The problem is that your god isn't a fact. Its an idea, a proposal, a concept. One that cannot or has not been verified to exist (unlike waves or other real phenomena or objects). I'm asking how you KNOW your god exists. Not whether you BELIEVE he does. Do you understand?



All you are doing is repeating that you believe he exists (I have faith). This doesn't address how you KNOW. It only addresses WHY you believe.

Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different.


therefore your god MUST/DOES exist?

For me, just because I can't physically see or measure God does not mean He isn't there.




I disagree. The same does NOT apply to many of my beliefs because many of my beliefs are JUSTIFIED BELIEFS (knowledge) because evidence and reason support them. For example, I have KNOW that things fall downwards (under norma" circumstances) and KNOW that my pen will fall to the ground when dropped. It would be irrational/unreasonable of me to believe things fall upward (under normal circumstances).

There are things in this world that we, as humans with limited understanding thus far, cannot grasp. Just because we may not grasp the how and why of something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a fact, just that we haven't figured it out yet.


Apparently your belief in your particular god is naked. It is a belief without reason. A belief without justification. A belief without the support of what you know or in spite of what you know. You simply believe. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well no kidding. Merriam-Webster defines faith as "2a(1)firm belief in something for which there is no proof. (2) complete trust"

That is what faith is.

Of course, for a complete explanation of faith, you could always consult Hebrews 11. ;)
 
What I acknowledge is that I don't have an issue with anyone who claims to seek "truth". In the end such truth may or may not bear with what you or I believe to be the truth.
I agree. There is no absolute certainty. But that doesn't mean there isn't things which are more reasonable, likely, or more certain than others.
Critical thinking, skepticism, evidence, among other things provide the MOST RELIABLE method of discovering truth.

How reliable is faith? How do you KNOW? Do you even care?

Why not use the best tools in the tool box?


The problem with this is that there is no way to know with certainty whether there is a God or afterlife until after we die. I choose to believe there is. My choice. Yours is obviously different.
You can believe anything you'd like. That doesn't mean your choice of belief isn't a poor one.

What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief is not true doesn't make it false.
I agree. Asserting a belief does not make it true or false. Hence why we should base our beliefs NOT on what we want, hope, or assert but what we can confirm and verify as true or likely true.



I am not proud of anything. I simply will believe what I will believe and refuse to waver from that. It is fine if you do not agree with it.
I am not so arrogant as to claim that I will never change my beliefs. My beliefs CONSTANTLY change as I get newer, better, and more accurate information. My beliefs are CONCLUSIONS based on what I know and understand. I do not deny that gods exist I just find no reason or evidence for me (or others) to CONCLUDE/BELIEVE they do exist.

What you keep restating is that you believe a god does exist and it doesn't matter what you learn, discover, etc, you'll never change that belief. It clear that this is because some of your beliefs are NOT based on what you learn, know, or discover. Some of your beliefs are ASSUMED. Hence you are forever stuck in the inescapable pit you have created in your own mind.


Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different.
If other people had your experiences would they conclude a god exists? Would they conclude that its your particular god?




For me, just because I can't physically see or measure God does not mean He isn't there.
Just because you can't see/measure allah,thor, zeus, Quetzalcoatl, unicorns, leprechauns, etc, etc, does NOT mean they aren't there either.

What is the difference between something that has no evidence for its existence and something that doesn't exist or is imaginary?



There are things in this world that we, as humans with limited understanding thus far, cannot grasp. Just because we may not grasp the how and why of something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a fact, just that we haven't figured it out yet.
I agree. Why does that mean your god exists? Does that mean leprechauns can't exist?
 
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... My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different...

This is known as confirmation bias. Because you believe n the existence of God, random events are interpreted through that belief to reinforce your preconception that he exists.
 
This is known as confirmation bias. Because you believe n the existence of God, random events are interpreted through that belief to reinforce your preconception that he exists.

I don't agree because until those things happened, I didn't believe. I am assuming of course my experiences are similar to hers.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not think that is the case for everyone who believes in God.
 
I don't agree because until those things happened, I didn't believe. I am assuming of course my experiences are similar to hers.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not think that is the case for everyone who believes in God.

For most people, they believe because they were indoctrinated. For some, they had events in their life that they couldn't explain so they adopted a religious view as an explanation rather than either seeking out the real explanation or just admitting they didn't know. Picking something just because it makes you feel better isn't rational.
 
Of course not. Nor do I believe in Frodo Baggins or Conan the Barbarian. Why do you ask?
 
For most people, they believe because they were indoctrinated. For some, they had events in their life that they couldn't explain so they adopted a religious view as an explanation rather than either seeking out the real explanation or just admitting they didn't know. Picking something just because it makes you feel better isn't rational.

If this was the case we would still believe in Zeus etc.

I don't think most people pick something to make them "feel better" at all.
 
This is known as confirmation bias. Because you don't believe in the existence of God, random events are interpreted through that belief to reinforce your preconception that he doesn't exist.

fixed it for ya. no thanks necessary :thumbs:
 
Nah, I don't believe Noah. I think he has bluffed his way to the top, as he is clearly not good enough to play for the Chicago Bulls.
 
For most people, they believe because they were indoctrinated. For some, they had events in their life that they couldn't explain so they adopted a religious view as an explanation rather than either seeking out the real explanation or just admitting they didn't know. Picking something just because it makes you feel better isn't rational.

Well, I can't deny that indoctrination is a factor in why religion is so widespread... but it's not even as simple of a matter of 'events you can't explain'... and also that for some people religion is a comfort...

The thing is that there are proofs of spiritual reality.... a prime example, ever seen the film 'a beautiful mind'?? Well, the real world Robert Nash discovered 'game theory' and created mathematical proof of the spiritual concept of altruism (or in the bible 'do unto others'). That doesn't necessarily prove the single all knowing all powerful god, but it does prove that the points discussed. So, whether Noah is 'physically' real and the flood story really happened, that doesn't mean that there aren't important lessons to be drawn from this and other ancient stories...
 
Well, I can't deny that indoctrination is a factor in why religion is so widespread... but it's not even as simple of a matter of 'events you can't explain'... and also that for some people religion is a comfort...

The thing is that there are proofs of spiritual reality.... a prime example, ever seen the film 'a beautiful mind'?? Well, the real world Robert Nash discovered 'game theory' and created mathematical proof of the spiritual concept of altruism (or in the bible 'do unto others'). That doesn't necessarily prove the single all knowing all powerful god, but it does prove that the points discussed. So, whether Noah is 'physically' real and the flood story really happened, that doesn't mean that there aren't important lessons to be drawn from this and other ancient stories...

It really doesn't matter whether there are lessons to be learned. There are lessons to be learned from Aesop's Fables too, but you don't see religions springing up demanding they're factually true. If there are lessons, take them. Don't pretend that it makes them real.
 
Because there is the common threads of WHY the 'gods' wanted to destroy man... that God had destroyed man previous times to the flood, and Gods warning a select group to prepare for the flood, or guiding them to safety, etc... also the severity of the flood... among a few other things.
Water has always been thought to be a purifying substance and a flood would have been one of the more destructive events most cultures knew about. Divine beings cleansing a wicked world with water isnt exactly a stretch.

But really, it would take too long to go through all the examples and peg them to the regions of the world that were impacted... and since it's all based on stories that originate from probably before there was anyone writing these stories down... and so there's no real way to 'prove' any of it in any conclusive fashion.
We can trace the cultural psychology of a flood myth. Again, water is seen as a purifying element in MANY cultures across the world and a flood is an extremely destructive event.

Actually, one piece that caught my eye just before the flood was God telling Noah that he would not remain on the earth forever, and that a man is meant to live to 120 years. The thing is that there's research going on with a genetic explanation of why you never really see anyone live past 120... and that's because something happens on the genetic level and once you reach 120 years that it's the limit. That is, until the technology comes about to repair this damage, meaning that you could extend a persons life...
Technically, we arent really supposed to live past 40. We reach our physical and sexual prime around 15-17 and by 30, our bodies start to decline.

Which is the one point that I will make, is that there isn't really anything in the bible that is specifically contrary to what we've since learned with science... and while I don't believe the stories to be literally true, I do strongly believe that there is more truth to those stories then we might readily accept.
Actually there are plenty of things in the bible that are incompatible with a modern understanding of science. The story of a global flood is one, there is no physical evidence for a global flood.

Actually, some of the northern european and inuit flood myths include descriptions of god melting the northern ice caps... which wouldn't necessarily mean the whole north pole, but as far as they could see...
It takes A LOT longer than a human lifetime to completely melt a polar ice-cap.

Also, a melting of the polar ice-cap would have shut down the thermohaline cycle of the oceans and brought with it a new ice age. I dont recall seeing that in the bible.

Right, but there are also many 'anomalies' on the earth that seem to defy what we know about our capabilities throughout history... for example, we are taught that mankind went from hunter gathering societies to master pyramid builders in essentially a blink of an eye
Erm...no. We have evidence of human hunter-gatherer societies in Egypt back to about 30,000 BC. The Great Pyramid at Giza was built roughly 2,600 BC. That's hardly the blink of an eye.

and EVEN WITH today's technology, we'd be hard pressed to recreate this
Again, not true.

also, it's said that they were built within 22 years... and engineers have estimated that this would have required over a million workers per **** working non-stop for those 22 years... AND that doesn't include getting the blocks from the quarries some distance away.
It's amazing what you can do with a dedicated labor force.

Or, easter island would be an anomaly because at the time they were supposedly built the people hadn't started writing, which was is viewed as a pre-requisite to intricate construction...
Moai are not built, they were carved from a hillside.

Then the Nasca(sp?) lines... and there are others as well...
Actually people have managed to recreate the Nazca Lines with relatively little difficulty
Hall of Maat - Grounding the Nasca Balloon

I'm just saying that what we KNOW about our history may not be accurate...
What YOU know of history definitely isn't accurate. I can see how that might lead to a flawed interpretation.

Look, I don't know what you expect about 'evidence'... but an example of 'evidence' would be that the sphinx was built to align with specific markers, however, with the timeline we're told some 6000 years ago, with the logic going into the design the sphinx should be a Bull... but if you go back to 11000 years and adjust for the earths wobble, then you get the proper alignment with LEO the lion.
The Orion Correlation Theory is not accepted as a valid theory by the archeological or astronomical communities.

That's the best type of 'proof' you might find... so, it again boils down to a matter of faith.
I have no problem with faith. But if you try to claim that something you BELIEVE happened actually happened then I want to see proof of it.

I have very strong religious beliefs and I trust the gods unto death. But I dont expect anyone to take any claims I make about the gods as fact. I believe these things to be true but I do not advance them as irrefutable fact.

There's no way to prove this all either... it doesn't make it false.
That is generally the hallmark of a bad idea.

The point is that even if the 'events' are untrue but are just stories, well... the stories illustrate univeral truths that go beyond the simple matter of whether god actual exists and the actual state that god exists in... I mean whether god is spiritual, energy, or physical being
It tells me nothing of the sort.
 
Water has always been thought to be a purifying substance and a flood would have been one of the more destructive events most cultures knew about. Divine beings cleansing a wicked world with water isnt exactly a stretch.

We can trace the cultural psychology of a flood myth. Again, water is seen as a purifying element in MANY cultures across the world and a flood is an extremely destructive event.

So, you're saying these cultures of old just 'made up' the destruction of virtually everyone, because it suits their psychological need to demonstrate the cleansing attributes of water??

Technically, we arent really supposed to live past 40. We reach our physical and sexual prime around 15-17 and by 30, our bodies start to decline.

That doesn't necessarily mean that we are meant to die at 40... and what I was referring to genetically, the systems of genetic repair make it so that a humans life is maximum around 120 years. Also, in previous times we had a 'lower life expectancy' because the numbers were also counting infant mortality, BUT, even pre-industrial times, if you managed to live past 5 years old, you could expect to live up to 75-80 years... the problem was that all too often there were problems with child birth, or the mother dying while giving birth, etc...

Actually there are plenty of things in the bible that are incompatible with a modern understanding of science. The story of a global flood is one, there is no physical evidence for a global flood.
Care to elaborate on this one??

It takes A LOT longer than a human lifetime to completely melt a polar ice-cap.

Also, a melting of the polar ice-cap would have shut down the thermohaline cycle of the oceans and brought with it a new ice age. I dont recall seeing that in the bible.

Right, but you're neglecting one point... it's the VERY common thread that it was 'GOD(S)' that flooded the earth... So, if the assumption is that there is no god, then naturally, it would be impossible... so, to make this case proper you must thoroughly disprove god, a task that's equally as impossible as proving its existence.

Erm...no. We have evidence of human hunter-gatherer societies in Egypt back to about 30,000 BC. The Great Pyramid at Giza was built roughly 2,600 BC. That's hardly the blink of an eye.
You utterly missed the point... where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids.

Again, not true
It's amazing what you can do with a dedicated labor force.

I'd have to see it to believe it... I mean, the transporting of the stones alone with today's technology would be a feat...

And, somewhat less relevant, a slave population worked to death is hardly the ideal 'dedicated work force'.

Moai are not built, they were carved from a hillside.

The guideline for such planning is that there be the pre-requisite of writing, this was not the case, therefore it is an anomaly.

Actually people have managed to recreate the Nazca Lines with relatively little difficulty
Hall of Maat - Grounding the Nasca Balloon

What YOU know of history definitely isn't accurate. I can see how that might lead to a flawed interpretation.

The Orion Correlation Theory is not accepted as a valid theory by the archeological or astronomical communities.

No of course these are all inaccurate... and my 'flawed interpretation' of history is mostly based on the misunderstanding of my point...

Did you actually try to tell me that the Giza pyramids / sphinx are unrelated to celestial bodies???

I have no problem with faith. But if you try to claim that something you BELIEVE happened actually happened then I want to see proof of it.

I have very strong religious beliefs and I trust the gods unto death. But I dont expect anyone to take any claims I make about the gods as fact. I believe these things to be true but I do not advance them as irrefutable fact.

See but your demand of proof for something so ancient, that we don't even KNOW when these stories originated (yes, the texts can have their origin tracked to an extent, but NOT the stories... ) The only FACT is that the facts have been lost with time, and the best we have is our GUESSES and extrapolations... so, there IS NO PROOF regardless... and that was part of my point.

That is generally the hallmark of a bad idea.

It tells me nothing of the sort.

I wouldn't even know where to start on this one... but to not have made the connection makes me wonder if you've read past the 20 first pages of the bible. Not that this would be a bad thing...

Take one of the examples of 'god' destroying a city... it's always done because of the 'evils' within that city... Now, as a literal interpretation you could say god sits around waiting for places to become corrupt, gets disgusted and destroys the city... OR, it could be something more subtle, that once a society allows corruption and evils to take old and loses the value of the good, that inevitably comes a time where the society will fall under the weight of it's own corruption. Is it 'god' destroying the society? Is it the results of the TRUTHS behind the story that a corrupt society will inevitably collapse? Etc...

That's just one example for the sake of brevity.
 
BmanMcfly said:
where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids

You do realize that the pyramids are JUST a bunch of really big stones piled on top of another, right?

You never played with bricks when you were a kid?

Let me guess. Aliens gave the Egyptians "secret alien tech" so they could carve up stones and stack them into a pyramid?
 
You utterly missed the point... where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids.

We know far more about Egyptian abilities and history than you apparently realize. It's quite a fascinating subject.

There are quite a few 'traditional' pyramids in Egypt - the 3 classics that we all see groups in photos on the Giza plateau - but along the Nile there are several other traditional pyramids that are this same *exact* shape - only smaller.

There's a series of pyramids designed by the same architect - his first attempts at a classic-pyramid were utter failures. One collapsed - so he modified the design. That modified design still didn't work quite well - so he changed it again. . . and again.

He finally figured it out small-scale and then was able to construct the large-scale pyramid.

The pyramids we all know of are not the first pyramid structures. Tese are 'classics' but before the classic design came a different structure called a 'mastaba' - these were traidtional for burial-tombs in Egypt for quite a long time and they constructed THOUSANDS of these - for every noble man, architect, pharoah and auntie to grace their nobility. . . there was one - these were constructed OVER TOP the underground tomb-area. . . later pyramids elevated the pharoah ABOVE ground - in the center.

(In Assyria they had ziggarats. It's the same idea idea - slightly different construction and purpose, though)

The reason why they STOPPED using the classic above-ground pyramid was because it was a costly, time consuming and dumb idea. The Egyptians believed in preserving their body forever so they could then live forever (their Ka would) - if the body was destroyed then they completely died. . . and all objects for the king/queen were sacred and meant to be undisturbed.

But when you put yourself in the middle of a mountain - the thieves know where you are. . . and they got in any way they could to do their theivery.

So after the great pyramid age quickly came and went - they went to rock-hewn tombs that were fancily carved DOWN INTO the ground - usually form the side of a hil or some such. . . in an area farther away from the main city to deter thieves (didn'twork - very few have been found intact. In fact, King Tut's tomb is one of these - the only one found to be completely unplundered).

So - why are you just arguing about the pyramids? The Egyptians, with their later-century temples that were above grounds - did some far more impressive work which used forced perspective and distance to construct temples - the Greeks weren't the first for that, that's for sure. Well, either were the Egyptians, either.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean someone *else* didn't figure it out and perfect the craft or knowledge. It just means YOU don't know how to do it. YOU are hardly a stick to judge by. . . we could build the pyramids now just as perfectly but we merely have no NEED for it.

You should look into African history - they still employ ancient methods of honing and shaping rock to continue maintenance on their ancient temples and such - it's fascinating.

When people take the time to examine the evidence and interpret it they will find the answers to many such 'mysteries'

Now - more on track with your argument taht I'm references in part - where's the 'learn how' that the Greek went through to build the Aquaducts?
Where's the 'learn how' for the Aztecs and the Incas? - Just because time, nature and people have removed the evidence doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Human history is fascinating and it's a damned crying shame that everything falls to dust after enough time has passed. Who know what other impressive wonders have been lost to time.

This is a cool video, here- of a guy using his own self to erect a stonehenge type pillar - it's so simple it diminished all debates about human ingenuity
 
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