View Poll Results: Do you believe Noah?

Voters
83. You may not vote on this poll
  • Im Christian. I believe his age and the Ark

    9 10.84%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe the Ark. I believe his age

    1 1.20%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe his age but I believe the Ark.

    2 2.41%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe EITHER his age nor the Ark.

    10 12.05%
  • Not Christian but I believe both the age and the Ark

    2 2.41%
  • Not Christian and its total and utter rubbish!

    49 59.04%
  • Other / I dont Know

    10 12.05%
Page 23 of 24 FirstFirst ... 1321222324 LastLast
Results 221 to 230 of 237

Thread: Do You believe Noah?

  1. #221
    Technomancer
    Hoplite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    05-08-11 @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,779

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Because there is the common threads of WHY the 'gods' wanted to destroy man... that God had destroyed man previous times to the flood, and Gods warning a select group to prepare for the flood, or guiding them to safety, etc... also the severity of the flood... among a few other things.
    Water has always been thought to be a purifying substance and a flood would have been one of the more destructive events most cultures knew about. Divine beings cleansing a wicked world with water isnt exactly a stretch.

    But really, it would take too long to go through all the examples and peg them to the regions of the world that were impacted... and since it's all based on stories that originate from probably before there was anyone writing these stories down... and so there's no real way to 'prove' any of it in any conclusive fashion.
    We can trace the cultural psychology of a flood myth. Again, water is seen as a purifying element in MANY cultures across the world and a flood is an extremely destructive event.

    Actually, one piece that caught my eye just before the flood was God telling Noah that he would not remain on the earth forever, and that a man is meant to live to 120 years. The thing is that there's research going on with a genetic explanation of why you never really see anyone live past 120... and that's because something happens on the genetic level and once you reach 120 years that it's the limit. That is, until the technology comes about to repair this damage, meaning that you could extend a persons life...
    Technically, we arent really supposed to live past 40. We reach our physical and sexual prime around 15-17 and by 30, our bodies start to decline.

    Which is the one point that I will make, is that there isn't really anything in the bible that is specifically contrary to what we've since learned with science... and while I don't believe the stories to be literally true, I do strongly believe that there is more truth to those stories then we might readily accept.
    Actually there are plenty of things in the bible that are incompatible with a modern understanding of science. The story of a global flood is one, there is no physical evidence for a global flood.

    Actually, some of the northern european and inuit flood myths include descriptions of god melting the northern ice caps... which wouldn't necessarily mean the whole north pole, but as far as they could see...
    It takes A LOT longer than a human lifetime to completely melt a polar ice-cap.

    Also, a melting of the polar ice-cap would have shut down the thermohaline cycle of the oceans and brought with it a new ice age. I dont recall seeing that in the bible.

    Right, but there are also many 'anomalies' on the earth that seem to defy what we know about our capabilities throughout history... for example, we are taught that mankind went from hunter gathering societies to master pyramid builders in essentially a blink of an eye
    Erm...no. We have evidence of human hunter-gatherer societies in Egypt back to about 30,000 BC. The Great Pyramid at Giza was built roughly 2,600 BC. That's hardly the blink of an eye.

    and EVEN WITH today's technology, we'd be hard pressed to recreate this
    Again, not true.

    also, it's said that they were built within 22 years... and engineers have estimated that this would have required over a million workers per **** working non-stop for those 22 years... AND that doesn't include getting the blocks from the quarries some distance away.
    It's amazing what you can do with a dedicated labor force.

    Or, easter island would be an anomaly because at the time they were supposedly built the people hadn't started writing, which was is viewed as a pre-requisite to intricate construction...
    Moai are not built, they were carved from a hillside.

    Then the Nasca(sp?) lines... and there are others as well...
    Actually people have managed to recreate the Nazca Lines with relatively little difficulty
    Hall of Maat - Grounding the Nasca Balloon

    I'm just saying that what we KNOW about our history may not be accurate...
    What YOU know of history definitely isn't accurate. I can see how that might lead to a flawed interpretation.

    Look, I don't know what you expect about 'evidence'... but an example of 'evidence' would be that the sphinx was built to align with specific markers, however, with the timeline we're told some 6000 years ago, with the logic going into the design the sphinx should be a Bull... but if you go back to 11000 years and adjust for the earths wobble, then you get the proper alignment with LEO the lion.
    The Orion Correlation Theory is not accepted as a valid theory by the archeological or astronomical communities.

    That's the best type of 'proof' you might find... so, it again boils down to a matter of faith.
    I have no problem with faith. But if you try to claim that something you BELIEVE happened actually happened then I want to see proof of it.

    I have very strong religious beliefs and I trust the gods unto death. But I dont expect anyone to take any claims I make about the gods as fact. I believe these things to be true but I do not advance them as irrefutable fact.

    There's no way to prove this all either... it doesn't make it false.
    That is generally the hallmark of a bad idea.

    The point is that even if the 'events' are untrue but are just stories, well... the stories illustrate univeral truths that go beyond the simple matter of whether god actual exists and the actual state that god exists in... I mean whether god is spiritual, energy, or physical being
    It tells me nothing of the sort.
    I'm Done

    See my last post

  2. #222
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    01-03-16 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,761

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Water has always been thought to be a purifying substance and a flood would have been one of the more destructive events most cultures knew about. Divine beings cleansing a wicked world with water isnt exactly a stretch.

    We can trace the cultural psychology of a flood myth. Again, water is seen as a purifying element in MANY cultures across the world and a flood is an extremely destructive event.
    So, you're saying these cultures of old just 'made up' the destruction of virtually everyone, because it suits their psychological need to demonstrate the cleansing attributes of water??

    Technically, we arent really supposed to live past 40. We reach our physical and sexual prime around 15-17 and by 30, our bodies start to decline.
    That doesn't necessarily mean that we are meant to die at 40... and what I was referring to genetically, the systems of genetic repair make it so that a humans life is maximum around 120 years. Also, in previous times we had a 'lower life expectancy' because the numbers were also counting infant mortality, BUT, even pre-industrial times, if you managed to live past 5 years old, you could expect to live up to 75-80 years... the problem was that all too often there were problems with child birth, or the mother dying while giving birth, etc...

    Actually there are plenty of things in the bible that are incompatible with a modern understanding of science. The story of a global flood is one, there is no physical evidence for a global flood.
    Care to elaborate on this one??

    It takes A LOT longer than a human lifetime to completely melt a polar ice-cap.

    Also, a melting of the polar ice-cap would have shut down the thermohaline cycle of the oceans and brought with it a new ice age. I dont recall seeing that in the bible.
    Right, but you're neglecting one point... it's the VERY common thread that it was 'GOD(S)' that flooded the earth... So, if the assumption is that there is no god, then naturally, it would be impossible... so, to make this case proper you must thoroughly disprove god, a task that's equally as impossible as proving its existence.

    Erm...no. We have evidence of human hunter-gatherer societies in Egypt back to about 30,000 BC. The Great Pyramid at Giza was built roughly 2,600 BC. That's hardly the blink of an eye.
    You utterly missed the point... where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

    I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids.

    Again, not true
    It's amazing what you can do with a dedicated labor force.
    I'd have to see it to believe it... I mean, the transporting of the stones alone with today's technology would be a feat...

    And, somewhat less relevant, a slave population worked to death is hardly the ideal 'dedicated work force'.

    Moai are not built, they were carved from a hillside.
    The guideline for such planning is that there be the pre-requisite of writing, this was not the case, therefore it is an anomaly.

    Actually people have managed to recreate the Nazca Lines with relatively little difficulty
    Hall of Maat - Grounding the Nasca Balloon

    What YOU know of history definitely isn't accurate. I can see how that might lead to a flawed interpretation.

    The Orion Correlation Theory is not accepted as a valid theory by the archeological or astronomical communities.
    No of course these are all inaccurate... and my 'flawed interpretation' of history is mostly based on the misunderstanding of my point...

    Did you actually try to tell me that the Giza pyramids / sphinx are unrelated to celestial bodies???

    I have no problem with faith. But if you try to claim that something you BELIEVE happened actually happened then I want to see proof of it.

    I have very strong religious beliefs and I trust the gods unto death. But I dont expect anyone to take any claims I make about the gods as fact. I believe these things to be true but I do not advance them as irrefutable fact.
    See but your demand of proof for something so ancient, that we don't even KNOW when these stories originated (yes, the texts can have their origin tracked to an extent, but NOT the stories... ) The only FACT is that the facts have been lost with time, and the best we have is our GUESSES and extrapolations... so, there IS NO PROOF regardless... and that was part of my point.

    That is generally the hallmark of a bad idea.

    It tells me nothing of the sort.
    I wouldn't even know where to start on this one... but to not have made the connection makes me wonder if you've read past the 20 first pages of the bible. Not that this would be a bad thing...

    Take one of the examples of 'god' destroying a city... it's always done because of the 'evils' within that city... Now, as a literal interpretation you could say god sits around waiting for places to become corrupt, gets disgusted and destroys the city... OR, it could be something more subtle, that once a society allows corruption and evils to take old and loses the value of the good, that inevitably comes a time where the society will fall under the weight of it's own corruption. Is it 'god' destroying the society? Is it the results of the TRUTHS behind the story that a corrupt society will inevitably collapse? Etc...

    That's just one example for the sake of brevity.

  3. #223
    Sage
    scourge99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    01-27-12 @ 02:50 AM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,233

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly
    where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

    I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids
    You do realize that the pyramids are JUST a bunch of really big stones piled on top of another, right?

    You never played with bricks when you were a kid?

    Let me guess. Aliens gave the Egyptians "secret alien tech" so they could carve up stones and stack them into a pyramid?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  4. #224
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,277

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    It's a fairy tail.
    You like fairy tails don't you?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  5. #225
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post

    You utterly missed the point... where is the 'learning' to build pyramids?? Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?

    I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids.
    We know far more about Egyptian abilities and history than you apparently realize. It's quite a fascinating subject.

    There are quite a few 'traditional' pyramids in Egypt - the 3 classics that we all see groups in photos on the Giza plateau - but along the Nile there are several other traditional pyramids that are this same *exact* shape - only smaller.

    There's a series of pyramids designed by the same architect - his first attempts at a classic-pyramid were utter failures. One collapsed - so he modified the design. That modified design still didn't work quite well - so he changed it again. . . and again.

    He finally figured it out small-scale and then was able to construct the large-scale pyramid.

    The pyramids we all know of are not the first pyramid structures. Tese are 'classics' but before the classic design came a different structure called a 'mastaba' - these were traidtional for burial-tombs in Egypt for quite a long time and they constructed THOUSANDS of these - for every noble man, architect, pharoah and auntie to grace their nobility. . . there was one - these were constructed OVER TOP the underground tomb-area. . . later pyramids elevated the pharoah ABOVE ground - in the center.

    (In Assyria they had ziggarats. It's the same idea idea - slightly different construction and purpose, though)

    The reason why they STOPPED using the classic above-ground pyramid was because it was a costly, time consuming and dumb idea. The Egyptians believed in preserving their body forever so they could then live forever (their Ka would) - if the body was destroyed then they completely died. . . and all objects for the king/queen were sacred and meant to be undisturbed.

    But when you put yourself in the middle of a mountain - the thieves know where you are. . . and they got in any way they could to do their theivery.

    So after the great pyramid age quickly came and went - they went to rock-hewn tombs that were fancily carved DOWN INTO the ground - usually form the side of a hil or some such. . . in an area farther away from the main city to deter thieves (didn'twork - very few have been found intact. In fact, King Tut's tomb is one of these - the only one found to be completely unplundered).

    So - why are you just arguing about the pyramids? The Egyptians, with their later-century temples that were above grounds - did some far more impressive work which used forced perspective and distance to construct temples - the Greeks weren't the first for that, that's for sure. Well, either were the Egyptians, either.

    Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean someone *else* didn't figure it out and perfect the craft or knowledge. It just means YOU don't know how to do it. YOU are hardly a stick to judge by. . . we could build the pyramids now just as perfectly but we merely have no NEED for it.

    You should look into African history - they still employ ancient methods of honing and shaping rock to continue maintenance on their ancient temples and such - it's fascinating.

    When people take the time to examine the evidence and interpret it they will find the answers to many such 'mysteries'

    Now - more on track with your argument taht I'm references in part - where's the 'learn how' that the Greek went through to build the Aquaducts?
    Where's the 'learn how' for the Aztecs and the Incas? - Just because time, nature and people have removed the evidence doesn't mean it didn't exist.

    Human history is fascinating and it's a damned crying shame that everything falls to dust after enough time has passed. Who know what other impressive wonders have been lost to time.

    This is a cool video, here- of a guy using his own self to erect a stonehenge type pillar - it's so simple it diminished all debates about human ingenuity
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 12-17-10 at 09:59 PM.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  6. #226
    Shankmasta Killa
    TacticalEvilDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western NY and Geneva, CH
    Last Seen
    08-30-15 @ 04:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,444

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    So I've seen some interesting arguments in this thread for how Noah's ark was possible (God essentially pitched in to handle the stuff Noah couldn't do himself, like live for 900 years or get a bunch of animals together), and for how it wasn't possible (too big, too hard to gather the animals and keep them on one boat without chaos ensuing). I also found interesting the fact that a flood story, rather than being isolated to the Jewish world view, has been echoed in other cultures and world views.

    Here's an alternative.

    What if, rather than working under the implicit assumption that God only gave a crap about Israel, we instead posit that God cares equally about everybody (Jew and gentile alike), and as such when he opted to flood the world to rid it of wickedness, Noah's ark wasn't the only such endeavor? What if every cultural center had a Noah, and an ark, and each ark carried within it some number of righteous people and the animals essential to each cultural center's local ecosystem?

    How about if Israel was the center of the biblical narrative because it was written by Jews, and not because God threw out the rest of the babies out with the bath-water?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  7. #227
    Technomancer
    Hoplite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    05-08-11 @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,779

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    So, you're saying these cultures of old just 'made up' the destruction of virtually everyone, because it suits their psychological need to demonstrate the cleansing attributes of water??
    No, what probably happened was severe local floods combined with a limited understanding of the world at large to make a flood story about the entire world being flooded. This was rationalized by saying that a god or gods had destroyed the wicked or evil people in society.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that we are meant to die at 40
    Speaking from an evolutionary perspective, yes it does.

    ... and what I was referring to genetically, the systems of genetic repair make it so that a humans life is maximum around 120 years. Also, in previous times we had a 'lower life expectancy' because the numbers were also counting infant mortality, BUT, even pre-industrial times, if you managed to live past 5 years old, you could expect to live up to 75-80 years... the problem was that all too often there were problems with child birth, or the mother dying while giving birth, etc...
    Our life expectancy is increasing due to a myriad of factors. I'm sure in 100 years, 120 will be the new 80.

    Care to elaborate on this one??
    Science and History in the Bible

    Right, but you're neglecting one point... it's the VERY common thread that it was 'GOD(S)' that flooded the earth... So, if the assumption is that there is no god, then naturally, it would be impossible... so, to make this case proper you must thoroughly disprove god, a task that's equally as impossible as proving its existence.
    Erm...no. We can demonstrate there was no global flood with a basic knowledge of geology and we know the natural causes for a flood.

    You utterly missed the point... where is the 'learning' to build pyramids??
    The process is actually pretty apparent. The Egyptians started with small mudbrick structures called mastabas. These grew larger and larger until they became step pyramids. Those grew even larger still and had their outer facing sheared off to create the Egyptian pyramid we are so familiar with.

    Where is the learning to build a square so flush that it would nearly require the use of laser leveling, and further the allignment of this square to be within a fraction of a degree of true north?
    A level is not exactly rocket science and we do have indications they had and used such tools.

    I know that there are other smaller, assumed previous pyramids... like 2 or 3 of them... but even then there was a HUGE jump in the knowleged required in those to the pristine workmanship in the great pyramids.
    Not actually. The pyramids were an amazing feat of engineering and extremely impressive for people who didnt even have the wheel and used copper tools, dont get me wrong. But they are not miraculous structures.

    I'd have to see it to believe it... I mean, the transporting of the stones alone with today's technology would be a feat...
    They're called trucks. The average stone used in construction was about 30 tons (IIRC). A flat-bed could handle 30 tons if it was careful.

    And, somewhat less relevant, a slave population worked to death is hardly the ideal 'dedicated work force'.
    The people who built the pyramids were not slaves. Hollywood was wrong.

    We have indications of small tombs built for people who died during the construction, some of them common laborers. That isnt something that would be afforded to a slave.

    The guideline for such planning is that there be the pre-requisite of writing, this was not the case, therefore it is an anomaly.
    No, it isnt. A sculptor can easily create a large sculpture without needing to write anything down. Granted it makes the process MUCH easier to do so, but it's far from impossible. Especially if that sculpture is not complex. Moai are very interesting and beautiful in their own way, but they are hardly complex, technical pieces.

    No of course these are all inaccurate... and my 'flawed interpretation' of history is mostly based on the misunderstanding of my point...
    I have demonstrated twice now that your fundamental understanding of history seems to have some major holes.

    Did you actually try to tell me that the Giza pyramids / sphinx are unrelated to celestial bodies???
    I'm not aware of any deliberate attempts by the Egyptians to align their structures with the stars.

    Such an action would be out of line with their beliefs. AFAIK, the Egyptians had no system of astrology until Alexander the Great and while they believed Pharaoh ascended to heaven to live among the stars, there's no indication they believed the stars were fixed. The stars were thought to be part of the body of Nut, the goddess of the sky who swallowed the sun and moon every night and gave birth to them again each day.

    See but your demand of proof for something so ancient, that we don't even KNOW when these stories originated (yes, the texts can have their origin tracked to an extent, but NOT the stories... ) The only FACT is that the facts have been lost with time, and the best we have is our GUESSES and extrapolations... so, there IS NO PROOF regardless... and that was part of my point.
    We can demonstrate that your theories about what happened are incorrect.

    I wouldn't even know where to start on this one... but to not have made the connection makes me wonder if you've read past the 20 first pages of the bible. Not that this would be a bad thing...
    I'm not Christian so I dont make a habit to read the bible.

    Take one of the examples of 'god' destroying a city... it's always done because of the 'evils' within that city... Now, as a literal interpretation you could say god sits around waiting for places to become corrupt, gets disgusted and destroys the city... OR, it could be something more subtle, that once a society allows corruption and evils to take old and loses the value of the good, that inevitably comes a time where the society will fall under the weight of it's own corruption. Is it 'god' destroying the society? Is it the results of the TRUTHS behind the story that a corrupt society will inevitably collapse? Etc...

    That's just one example for the sake of brevity.
    Except you were previously alluding to the idea that the flood and similar stories were NOT allegorical in nature.
    Last edited by Hoplite; 12-18-10 at 07:22 AM.
    I'm Done

    See my last post

  8. #228
    Sage
    The Giant Noodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Last Seen
    11-03-14 @ 05:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,333

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Regarding Noahs age (900+) there has NEVER been any evidence that someone has lived that long. The idea that a man, even now, could live longer than 140 is insane.
    CORPORATE GREED AND UNION GREED
    DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS
    DESTROYING THE BEST OF AMERICA ONE DAY AT A TIME

    This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against ME! ~ Bender

  9. #229
    Shankmasta Killa
    TacticalEvilDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western NY and Geneva, CH
    Last Seen
    08-30-15 @ 04:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,444

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Must be he had a high-fiber diet.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  10. #230
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Last Seen
    12-19-10 @ 03:29 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    75

    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Who wouldn't believe that a giant boat held two of every animal on earth while the entire planet was being completely flooded... then God created a rainbow? It makes perfect sense.

Page 23 of 24 FirstFirst ... 1321222324 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •