View Poll Results: Do you believe Noah?

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  • Im Christian. I believe his age and the Ark

    9 10.84%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe the Ark. I believe his age

    1 1.20%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe his age but I believe the Ark.

    2 2.41%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe EITHER his age nor the Ark.

    10 12.05%
  • Not Christian but I believe both the age and the Ark

    2 2.41%
  • Not Christian and its total and utter rubbish!

    49 59.04%
  • Other / I dont Know

    10 12.05%
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Thread: Do You believe Noah?

  1. #201
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Do I believe just anything? No. Do I believe in God and His ability to make such an event take place? Yes. Such faith doesn't require anyone's approval or agreement.
    So therefore you believe God is a liar then?

    If you believe that God was the reason the testable and demonstrable properties of water no longer applied during the flood, then God hid all of the evidence to such suspension and then placed organisms in the fossil layer as they would have been sorted by natural processes rather then by the new properties of water during a flood?

    This is why actual Christians reject the flood story. It requires their God to be a biggest liar of all time. Can the Christian God be perfect yet the biggest deceiver of all time?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Erm..how so?
    Because there is the common threads of WHY the 'gods' wanted to destroy man... that God had destroyed man previous times to the flood, and Gods warning a select group to prepare for the flood, or guiding them to safety, etc... also the severity of the flood... among a few other things.

    But really, it would take too long to go through all the examples and peg them to the regions of the world that were impacted... and since it's all based on stories that originate from probably before there was anyone writing these stories down... and so there's no real way to 'prove' any of it in any conclusive fashion.

    I have zero problem with belief. It's when you start trying to get me to accept these things as literal fact that I get edgy
    Actually, one piece that caught my eye just before the flood was God telling Noah that he would not remain on the earth forever, and that a man is meant to live to 120 years. The thing is that there's research going on with a genetic explanation of why you never really see anyone live past 120... and that's because something happens on the genetic level and once you reach 120 years that it's the limit. That is, until the technology comes about to repair this damage, meaning that you could extend a persons life...

    Which is the one point that I will make, is that there isn't really anything in the bible that is specifically contrary to what we've since learned with science... and while I don't believe the stories to be literally true, I do strongly believe that there is more truth to those stories then we might readily accept.

    No...it wouldnt. The ice would burn away into water vapor long before it entered the atmosphere and that much water would actually throw the gravitation of the Earth off and probably knock it out of it's orbit.

    Ok, the AMOUNT of water on Earth NEVER changes. Ocean levels rise and fall with the shrinking or growing of the polar ice caps. The bigger the ice caps, the lower the ocean levels. A change in the level of the oceans doesnt actually effect how much water there is on Earth.
    Actually, some of the northern european and inuit flood myths include descriptions of god melting the northern ice caps... which wouldn't necessarily mean the whole north pole, but as far as they could see...

    In the time-frame (roughly) provided, we have a good idea of what our capabilities were and the ark is not within that range.
    Right, but there are also many 'anomalies' on the earth that seem to defy what we know about our capabilities throughout history... for example, we are taught that mankind went from hunter gathering societies to master pyramid builders in essentially a blink of an eye, and EVEN WITH today's technology, we'd be hard pressed to recreate this, also, it's said that they were built within 22 years... and engineers have estimated that this would have required over a million workers per **** working non-stop for those 22 years... AND that doesn't include getting the blocks from the quarries some distance away.

    Or, easter island would be an anomaly because at the time they were supposedly built the people hadn't started writing, which was is viewed as a pre-requisite to intricate construction...

    Then the Nasca(sp?) lines... and there are others as well...

    I'm just saying that what we KNOW about our history may not be accurate...


    And that evidence consists of what exactly?

    I find it a little odd, but to each their own
    Look, I don't know what you expect about 'evidence'... but an example of 'evidence' would be that the sphinx was built to align with specific markers, however, with the timeline we're told some 6000 years ago, with the logic going into the design the sphinx should be a Bull... but if you go back to 11000 years and adjust for the earths wobble, then you get the proper alignment with LEO the lion.

    That's the best type of 'proof' you might find... so, it again boils down to a matter of faith.

    Simply because something cant be disproven doesn't automatically make it true.
    There's no way to prove this all either... it doesn't make it false. The point is that even if the 'events' are untrue but are just stories, well... the stories illustrate univeral truths that go beyond the simple matter of whether god actual exists and the actual state that god exists in... I mean whether god is spiritual, energy, or physical being.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    My belief in God is not predicated on whether or not the stories contained within the Bible are "literally" true. I do believe Noah existed and I believe there was a great flood and an ark.
    I agree, there was SOMETHING that happened to justify this story, precisely the 'what' I'm not sure. I actually believe that Noah was like a 'clan' that survived around for 900 years worth of generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    That's as good a demonstration of religious faith as any. Believing something in spite of evidence to the contrary.
    There's no more 'evidence' to the contrary then there is evidence in verification. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's hard to even put anything definitive down because the bible can be interpreted in probably 100 different ways, not to mention all aspects of the stories that have been lost in translations.

  3. #203
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    of course not.
    I use a lot of satire and sarcasm so keep that in mind when reading my posts.

  4. #204
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    [QUOTE=scourge99;1059157144]

    Some people desire to know whats true even if it contradicts what we personally hope or wish is true.

    That is fine. I have no issue with that nor do I judge those who claim to seek "truth".


    You believe your god gave you a brain right? Why are you so determined to NOT utilize what it provides: reason and logic.

    Faith is not about "proof" or "logic". Not much else to say about it. I have faith that these things happened. Just because I don't understand the "how" of it, doesn't diminish my conviction. There is much about this world we do not understand and are not capable of understanding yet. Doesn't make it any less so.


    You can BELIEVE whatever you like. That the sky is red, that you are the most beautiful and smart person in the world, etc. Your beliefs are irrelevant to reality. Your beliefs are irrelevant to what any gods did or did NOT do.

    You are correct, and the same applies to your perspective as well.

    How exactly do you determine what your God(s) did or did NOT do?

    1) Unverifiable personal testimonials
    2) Personal opinions
    3) Writings in old/new promotional literature
    4) “Revelations” from “prophets” or “seers”
    5) Accounts from wide ranging, independent sources that are in general agreement
    6) Accounts from sources that are not connected or involved with the claim or story
    7) Findings that have been widely tested and verified by others
    8) Findings that you can test personally if you choose

    Again, faith is not always "logical". My faith allows me to believe in these things, just as your lack of faith allows you to doubt.




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    ~ Francois Rabelais

  5. #205
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    So therefore you believe God is a liar then?
    Um, no.




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  6. #206
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3227&dateline=1247527  127

  7. #207
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post

    Some people desire to know whats true even if it contradicts what we personally hope or wish is true.
    That is fine. I have no issue with that nor do I judge those who claim to seek "truth".
    So you acknowledge that you would willfully believe that which is false as long as it "feels good" or gives you hope?

    Specifically, if there is no god or afterlife, you'd rather remain ignorant to that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You believe your god gave you a brain right? Why are you so determined to NOT utilize what it provides: reason and logic.
    [B]Faith is not about "proof" or "logic". [\b]
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Not much else to say about it. I have faith that these things happened.
    I don't doubt you believe they are true. What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief doesn't make it true.

    You can have faith in the tooth-fairy, your spouse, etc, but that doesn't mean you "belief" is consistent with reality. You have indicated that you don't care whether your beliefs are consistent with reality (I.E.,true).

    That you seem proud of this fact is what doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Just because I don't understand the "how" of it, doesn't diminish my conviction.
    I agree that not knowing how something occurs does not change the fact that such a thing does occur. E.G., I don't know exactly how waves form on the surface of the ocean but that doesn't change the fact that waves do form on the surface of the ocean.

    The problem is that your god isn't a fact. Its an idea, a proposal, a concept. One that cannot or has not been verified to exist (unlike waves or other real phenomena or objects). I'm asking how you KNOW your god exists. Not whether you BELIEVE he does. Do you understand?

    All you are doing is repeating that you believe he exists (I have faith). This doesn't address how you KNOW. It only addresses WHY you believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    There is much about this world we do not understand and are not capable of understanding yet. Doesn't make it any less so.
    therefore your god MUST/DOES exist?


    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You can BELIEVE whatever you like. That the sky is red, that you are the most beautiful and smart person in the world, etc. Your beliefs are irrelevant to reality. Your beliefs are irrelevant to what any gods did or did NOT do.
    You are correct, and the same applies to your perspective as well.
    I disagree. The same does NOT apply to many of my beliefs because many of my beliefs are JUSTIFIED BELIEFS (knowledge) because evidence and reason support them. For example, I have KNOW that things fall downwards (under norma" circumstances) and KNOW that my pen will fall to the ground when dropped. It would be irrational/unreasonable of me to believe things fall upward (under normal circumstances).

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    How exactly do you determine what your God(s) did or did NOT do?

    1) Unverifiable personal testimonials
    2) Personal opinions
    3) Writings in old/new promotional literature
    4) “Revelations” from “prophets” or “seers”
    5) Accounts from wide ranging, independent sources that are in general agreement
    6) Accounts from sources that are not connected or involved with the claim or story
    7) Findings that have been widely tested and verified by others
    8) Findings that you can test personally if you choose
    My faith allows me to believe in these things, just as your lack of faith allows you to doubt.
    You aren't saying anything meaningful. You are just repeating yourself by using synonyms: belief/faith, doubt/lack of faith.

    Apparently your belief in your particular god is naked. It is a belief without reason. A belief without justification. A belief without the support of what you know or in spite of what you know. You simply believe. Nothing more, nothing less.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #208
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    So you acknowledge that you would willfully believe that which is false as long as it "feels good" or gives you hope?
    What I acknowledge is that I don't have an issue with anyone who claims to seek "truth". In the end such truth may or may not bear with what you or I believe to be the truth.

    Specifically, if there is no god or afterlife, you'd rather remain ignorant to that fact.
    The problem with this is that there is no way to know with certainty whether there is a God or afterlife until after we die. I choose to believe there is. My choice. Yours is obviously different.


    I don't doubt you believe they are true. What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief doesn't make it true.
    What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief is not true doesn't make it false.

    You can have faith in the tooth-fairy, your spouse, etc, but that doesn't mean you "belief" is consistent with reality. You have indicated that you don't care whether your beliefs are consistent with reality (I.E.,true).

    That you seem proud of this fact is what doesn't make sense.
    I am not proud of anything. I simply will believe what I will believe and refuse to waver from that. It is fine if you do not agree with it.

    I agree that not knowing how something occurs does not change the fact that such a thing does occur. E.G., I don't know exactly how waves form on the surface of the ocean but that doesn't change the fact that waves do form on the surface of the ocean.

    The problem is that your god isn't a fact. Its an idea, a proposal, a concept. One that cannot or has not been verified to exist (unlike waves or other real phenomena or objects). I'm asking how you KNOW your god exists. Not whether you BELIEVE he does. Do you understand?



    All you are doing is repeating that you believe he exists (I have faith). This doesn't address how you KNOW. It only addresses WHY you believe.
    Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different.


    therefore your god MUST/DOES exist?
    For me, just because I can't physically see or measure God does not mean He isn't there.




    I disagree. The same does NOT apply to many of my beliefs because many of my beliefs are JUSTIFIED BELIEFS (knowledge) because evidence and reason support them. For example, I have KNOW that things fall downwards (under norma" circumstances) and KNOW that my pen will fall to the ground when dropped. It would be irrational/unreasonable of me to believe things fall upward (under normal circumstances).
    There are things in this world that we, as humans with limited understanding thus far, cannot grasp. Just because we may not grasp the how and why of something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a fact, just that we haven't figured it out yet.


    Apparently your belief in your particular god is naked. It is a belief without reason. A belief without justification. A belief without the support of what you know or in spite of what you know. You simply believe. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Well no kidding. Merriam-Webster defines faith as "2a(1)firm belief in something for which there is no proof. (2) complete trust"

    That is what faith is.

    Of course, for a complete explanation of faith, you could always consult Hebrews 11.




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  9. #209
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    What I acknowledge is that I don't have an issue with anyone who claims to seek "truth". In the end such truth may or may not bear with what you or I believe to be the truth.
    I agree. There is no absolute certainty. But that doesn't mean there isn't things which are more reasonable, likely, or more certain than others.
    Critical thinking, skepticism, evidence, among other things provide the MOST RELIABLE method of discovering truth.

    How reliable is faith? How do you KNOW? Do you even care?

    Why not use the best tools in the tool box?


    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    The problem with this is that there is no way to know with certainty whether there is a God or afterlife until after we die. I choose to believe there is. My choice. Yours is obviously different.
    You can believe anything you'd like. That doesn't mean your choice of belief isn't a poor one.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    What you don't seem to understand is that asserting a belief is not true doesn't make it false.
    I agree. Asserting a belief does not make it true or false. Hence why we should base our beliefs NOT on what we want, hope, or assert but what we can confirm and verify as true or likely true.



    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    I am not proud of anything. I simply will believe what I will believe and refuse to waver from that. It is fine if you do not agree with it.
    I am not so arrogant as to claim that I will never change my beliefs. My beliefs CONSTANTLY change as I get newer, better, and more accurate information. My beliefs are CONCLUSIONS based on what I know and understand. I do not deny that gods exist I just find no reason or evidence for me (or others) to CONCLUDE/BELIEVE they do exist.

    What you keep restating is that you believe a god does exist and it doesn't matter what you learn, discover, etc, you'll never change that belief. It clear that this is because some of your beliefs are NOT based on what you learn, know, or discover. Some of your beliefs are ASSUMED. Hence you are forever stuck in the inescapable pit you have created in your own mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different.
    If other people had your experiences would they conclude a god exists? Would they conclude that its your particular god?




    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    For me, just because I can't physically see or measure God does not mean He isn't there.
    Just because you can't see/measure allah,thor, zeus, Quetzalcoatl, unicorns, leprechauns, etc, etc, does NOT mean they aren't there either.

    What is the difference between something that has no evidence for its existence and something that doesn't exist or is imaginary?



    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    There are things in this world that we, as humans with limited understanding thus far, cannot grasp. Just because we may not grasp the how and why of something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a fact, just that we haven't figured it out yet.
    I agree. Why does that mean your god exists? Does that mean leprechauns can't exist?
    Last edited by scourge99; 12-15-10 at 02:01 AM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  10. #210
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    ... My answer to that is only that I have personally experienced and seen too many things to doubt the existence of God. Of course these things would have no meaning to you, but to me, it is different...
    This is known as confirmation bias. Because you believe n the existence of God, random events are interpreted through that belief to reinforce your preconception that he exists.
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