View Poll Results: Do you believe Noah?

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  • Im Christian. I believe his age and the Ark

    9 10.84%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe the Ark. I believe his age

    1 1.20%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe his age but I believe the Ark.

    2 2.41%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe EITHER his age nor the Ark.

    10 12.05%
  • Not Christian but I believe both the age and the Ark

    2 2.41%
  • Not Christian and its total and utter rubbish!

    49 59.04%
  • Other / I dont Know

    10 12.05%
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Thread: Do You believe Noah?

  1. #161
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I have no objection to people who believe the Bible is metaphorical or mythology. There is plenty of evidence that shows such a thing occurred in many different cultures. Its the literalists and the picking-and-choosing types that I find fault with.
    Ya, I agree... you can only have so much bible talk... when you start making points by quoting verses it starts pushing things a little far.

    Yes. Floods happen. No one denies that.
    Yes, but this was a massive flooding...

    What is denied is that
    1) a man built a wooden boat bigger than is possible by engineers today.
    How have people proven the size of a 'cubit'? I mean, that could be a meter, it could be 7.5 inches, I'd really have to see how the measurement was produced.

    Further, the stories of the bible, were stories that were told for unknown generations PRIOR to them being put into actual writing.

    Then it also matters if "God" in this story is a carnal being,

    2) all the animals of the world lived on it
    Well... 2 of every kind of animal. But like you said, the scale of 'the whole world' had to have been much different then today. So, I figure 2 of every animal...

    3) the entire world was flooded to the tops of mountains
    That depends on the region of the world, because in my hometown the 24 km around the highest mountain is lower then the tallest building... so it wouldn't take nearly as much for my 'world' to disappear.

    4) the world and its animals was repopulated by the survivors
    What if "Noah" isn't a singular person... but a 'tribe' of people, or a 'nation' of people?? And that 'tribe' or 'nation' survived 600 years... that at least gets past the incest factor... UNLESS of course there were survivors that simply weren't accounted for... not like that would get mentioned by that point.

    5) Noah lived to be 900
    Oh... 900... I thought it was Adam that lived to be 900... If we're talking about a plurality of people taking on a name, then it becomes entirely possible for a group of individuals to survive that long. The apocryphal book of Adam and Eve shouldn't count because it was written back in like Roman empire times.

    Have you considered the possibility that maybe 'god' is actually an extra-terrestrial life form?? That he tried to teach man about the universe, but that humans weren't able to grasp that much yet?

    Now, if that is the case, and there really was this massive global scaled flood, it's a pretty safe bet that any technology would be destroyed, and if you think about it, if you went back in time with a few technological 'toys' you could convince cavemen that you are the god of fire with a friggin bic lighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    At that point, why not accept that "God" is symbolic for natural forces that acted over billions of years?
    I believe the TRUE God is the 'symbol' for the natural forces... BUT, while I know the bible texts (for the most part, the bible is an overall interesting read, but so difficult), I believe that the 'truths' in the bible have been distorted beyond recognition over those thousands or tens of thousands of years.

    Just pretending that there's this father figure in the sky that's inordinately interested in your sex life is absurd.
    Now, consider that it's not that 'god is concerned' because he wants chastity... God doesn't care if you sleep with 1 woman or a thousand women. What this is is a WARNING that wrongful sex HAS CONSEQUENCES, call it karma, or whatever, the effect is the same... that when you have sex with someone for the wrong reasons then you are inviting the problems associated with it... STD's, pregnancies with the wrong woman, which also hurts THEIR lives, it ruins families, gets people killed if one person is cheating and caught...

    There are not many things in the bible, or any other religious text that I've taken any interest in, that don't share roughly the same ideologies at the core, but have REAL carnal consequences, in some form, psychological consequences, physical consequences... but none the less they are there.

    Just like sometimes people are spared because of their spiritual purity...
    (the church at the bottom all survived while praying...)

    There is no REAL explanation for these things... whether it's a person, or natural forces or energy... or infinite intelligence, maybe all of the above.

  2. #162
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Simply because all mythologies have a flood myth does not mean there was a flood. We need to consider that the ancient view of things was extremely narrow; they had no way of knowing what was really going on around them and a massive local flood could have seemed like the entire world had flooded.
    Ok, but these floods have a few things that are eerily similar :
    - Massive casualties of most everyone
    - The sudden onset
    - Weeks of rain (occasionally mixed with fire) coming down
    - THE WARNINGS FROM GOD TO SELECTED FEW
    - Only the high lands survived (the bible is closer to exception for this one)

    So, the fact is that with this level of similarities in virtually ALL civilizations WORLD WIDE suggests that EITHER 'Noah' reflected multitudes of people and was the source for the renewal of humanity, this was when humans were much more localized and DID literally mean 'the whole world flooded' as you suggest, OR by chance there are so many stories with the same characteristics.

    That said, I do agree that the 'everyone' would just as well to be said 'virtually everyone'

    I mean take a look at any flood in the US. Even with modern understanding, if I was there and seeing the main street through town under 20-30 feet of water I'd probably feel like the entire world had flooded.

    The problem with a GLOBAL flood is there is simply no evidence to show that it happened and there is PHYSICALLY not enough water on Earth to achieve one.
    Granted... and I know your about to raise a counterpoint to this... and I'm not in disagreement, but this topic requires a level of speculation regardless of interpretation.

    To say that the oceans were at the same level today as there were at the time of the flood... the waters DID recede to allow land to return... so, IF God of the bible is a carnal being, then we would be stuck on the 'technological capacity' of god... if God is a 'force of nature that is essentially sentient' then we have to wonder if perhaps the water came from a natural force, like say a singular event that DID impact the world in a way that wasn't necessarily apparent the world over that CAUSED there to be a HUGE decrease in oceans that lead to a flood...

    That could also be "Noah's" warning, because say, he noticed that the oceans water had receded and that it was only a matter of time before this water came back down...

    The laws of physics state otherwise, a global flood would not result from any amount of water in space striking the Earth. Such an event would wipe out ALL life on Earth, Noah and the ark included. Additionally, if this did indeed happen, you would disrupt something called the triple point of water on Earth which, again, would wipe out ALL life on Earth.

    Furthermore, if we suspended enough laws of physics for this to be possible, the land would still all be flooded. The water wouldn't go anywhere and would still be here.
    That depends on where the oceans sat at the time of the flood, the nature and powers of 'god', the 'pre-flood' technology of man, etc, etc.

    Or, there's always the outside chance that 'god' was only able to drown out sections of the world at a time and so the different stories are ALL actually independent and potentially true as well...

    I'm comforted by the fact that consciousness is effectively energy resulting from neuro-chemical reactions in the brain... and that energy can never be lost or created, only transformed, therefore consciousness is infinite as the energy that creates it... so whatever the after-life is, it must exist in some sense.

  3. #163
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    To be religious is to be pious. And nobody can has claimed otherwise. Nor as anyone claimed what you're stating above.
    I did not say being pius was not. I said to be more pius than someone else. And someone did say just that in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Of course they do. That's the entire point of religion. To make you believe there is some ultimate goal to your actions.
    Religion at it's base is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of life and the universe.

    Has nothing to do with needing a crutch. My statement also had nothing to do with any ultimate goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    10 commandments say differently.
    That is the Old Testament law for God's chosen people. For them it was a governmental system.

    Now please point out where we as Christians are called by the New Testament to set up a theocracy?

    Until you can show this, my statement stands as true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I doubt this is true. Mostly because you are asking for negative proof.
    Please point out what in my life would need to change??? It's not like you know, but I can tell you I do.

    Now negative proof or not does not change the fact of my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    God does not exist anymore than my daughter's imaginary friend does. When she grows up, that imaginary friend will disappear.
    You are welcome to your opinion. It does not make it right, but you are welcome to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You are fully grown up and still need that friend. The difference is not between you and the non-religious. The difference is between you and adults.
    Again, it is your opinion and little more.

    The difference between you and I is I don't have to insult your intelligence to state my case.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 12-09-10 at 10:30 PM.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Would Jesus give a tax gift to the ultra wealthy? Or would he spare the unemployed and help THEM?
    CORPORATE GREED AND UNION GREED
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  5. #165
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    Would Jesus give a tax gift to the ultra wealthy? Or would he spare the unemployed and help THEM?
    You should ask Ceasar. "It is not these well-fed long-haired men that I fear, but the pale and the hungry-looking.” J. Ceasar.

    or more directly mark 12:17 Jessus said, "“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
    Last edited by mike2810; 12-09-10 at 11:18 PM.
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  6. #166
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I did not say being pius was not. I said to be more pius than someone else. And someone did say just that in this thread.
    Who did? By default if you're religious then by default you are more pious than somebody who is not religious. If you want to be religious, then you want to be more pious than somebody who is not. Seems like a redundant circular reasoning on your part really.

    Religion at it's base is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of life and the universe.
    No. It's not. It's set on giving answers to questions. The bible doesn't say 'we believe that God made XYZ' it says 'God made XYZ'. It is a book making claims without the ability to prove them. To deny this is dishonest.

    Has nothing to do with needing a crutch. My statement also had nothing to do with any ultimate goal.

    That is the Old Testament law for God's chosen people. For them it was a governmental system.
    Of course it does. You're simply pretending it doesn't. Religion is about providing what some people feel is missing in their lives. Thus, the crutch.


    Now please point out where we as Christians are called by the New Testament to set up a theocracy?

    Until you can show this, my statement stands as true.
    This is called a straw man. You stated:

    Christianity is not a control mechanism.
    And I explained that the 10 commandments say differently. Every religion has rules and boundaries that an individual must abide by if he wishes to get to X place. Thus the control mechanism. The control mechanism in Christianity is the commandments, traditions etc. Christians follow them in order to get to X location.

    Please point out what in my life would need to change??? It's not like you know, but I can tell you I do.

    Now negative proof or not does not change the fact of my statement.
    Your statement has no fact. You stated that your life would not change if god was proven to not exist. However, the fact that you claim the existence of a god and expect negative proof of his existence shows that you have no intention of ever really answering the question on God's existence because you're better off believing a god does exist. This suggests your life really would change if there was no god.

    You are welcome to your opinion. It does not make it right, but you are welcome to it.

    Again, it is your opinion and little more.

    The difference between you and I is I don't have to insult your intelligence to state my case.
    What makes you think I am insulting your intelligence? The fact that you hold on to outdated beliefs and refuse to acknowledge the logical arguments being made against them? Well gee look at it this way. One day, my kid will grow up and she'll realize that there is no imaginary friend. That she was just pretending there was. If anything she'll be a person who has finally acknowledged a part of the reality she lives. Meanwhile, religious people like you will still be going to church and praying to a god that they can't see, smell, touch, feel, explain or prove. It's not because you're dumb or stupid. It's because you have not come to grips with the reality around you. You refuse to acknowledge that this is it. That you think about an afterlife because you can't understand your own suffering while alive. You'll continue to pretend that people have to prove the non-existence of a god in order for your claims to be untrue while at the same time saying that there is no god but the one you believe in.

    Here is what I want you to do as an exercise. I want you to come up with a logical reason as to why your god exists and Vishnu, Zeus or my daughter's imaginary friend do not. I bet the most you can do is say A) because I say so and B) because the Bible says so, which amounts to..... nothing.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 12-10-10 at 02:42 AM.
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  7. #167
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Hope you don't mind, but I have a question. The Epic of Gilgamesh from Syria, the indigenousness peoples of the Southwestern plains, the indigenous peoples of Mexico and South America, and many others, all speak of the flood. The question is, what makes the Hebrew version more credible than the others? I feel like ultra-Christians cannot think outside the box (by design, not their fault, different story) and want to argue about something that can easily be reconciled with other versions.

    I really dig the energy thing too. And I am a Christian, for the record. I have pretty good Scriptural knowledge. Another one of those things I should avoid talking about but don't. Sigh...
    I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic. - Abigail Adams

  8. #168
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev316 View Post
    Hope you don't mind, but I have a question. The Epic of Gilgamesh from Syria, the indigenousness peoples of the Southwestern plains, the indigenous peoples of Mexico and South America, and many others, all speak of the flood.
    They speak of THE flood or of a flood or multiple floods?

    Are you unaware that floods happen all over the world? Including major floods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev316 View Post
    The question is, what makes the Hebrew version more credible than the others?
    Absolutely nothing.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  9. #169
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ok, but these floods have a few things that are eerily similar :
    - Massive casualties of most everyone
    Tends to happen with floods.

    - The sudden onset
    Again, tends to happen with floods.

    - Weeks of rain (occasionally mixed with fire) coming down
    Not really unusual for a rainy season.

    - THE WARNINGS FROM GOD TO SELECTED FEW
    And what about the warnings to people that DONT come true, those tend to be quite a bit more numerous.

    - Only the high lands survived (the bible is closer to exception for this one)
    Again, not unusual for a flood.

    So, the fact is that with this level of similarities in virtually ALL civilizations WORLD WIDE suggests that EITHER 'Noah' reflected multitudes of people and was the source for the renewal of humanity, this was when humans were much more localized and DID literally mean 'the whole world flooded' as you suggest, OR by chance there are so many stories with the same characteristics.
    What you describe happens regardless of where a flood happens so I'd say the bolded is much more likely.

    To say that the oceans were at the same level today as there were at the time of the flood... the waters DID recede to allow land to return... so, IF God of the bible is a carnal being, then we would be stuck on the 'technological capacity' of god... if God is a 'force of nature that is essentially sentient' then we have to wonder if perhaps the water came from a natural force, like say a singular event that DID impact the world in a way that wasn't necessarily apparent the world over that CAUSED there to be a HUGE decrease in oceans that lead to a flood...
    Ok, but where did the water GO after the flood? Did it magically disappear?

    One thing you have to consider is that if you did add that much water to earth through some outside means, you'd essentially destroy Earth about fifty different ways. And I dont mean like "Oops, I killed a few plants." I mean like dead dead, all life wiped out, not even bacteria left.

    That depends on where the oceans sat at the time of the flood, the nature and powers of 'god', the 'pre-flood' technology of man, etc, etc.
    We know where the oceans sat and we know the technology level of when the flood is reputed to have happened.

    Or, there's always the outside chance that 'god' was only able to drown out sections of the world at a time and so the different stories are ALL actually independent and potentially true as well...
    If that's true, I'm going to want to see some evidence of it.

    I'm comforted by the fact that consciousness is effectively energy resulting from neuro-chemical reactions in the brain... and that energy can never be lost or created, only transformed, therefore consciousness is infinite as the energy that creates it... so whatever the after-life is, it must exist in some sense.
    That's comforting? What makes you think your energy will remain intact when you die and wont dissipate to thousands of other things?
    I'm Done

    See my last post

  10. #170
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    I've often wondered myself if they were referencing the same flood. The common denominator seems to be their rescue by a god or Gods. "Mole People" took Hopi ancestors underground, Mexican ancestors were taken to a mountaintop, etc. The majority involve "righteous" men and their immediate families. They all are charged afterward with "replenishing" the Earth.

    I just find it fascinating. And yes, I am aware that floods happen all over the world. This particular flood, however, seems to have burned itself in to our DNA for some reason. I like to know what others think, that's all.
    I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic. - Abigail Adams

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