View Poll Results: Do you believe Noah?

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  • Im Christian. I believe his age and the Ark

    9 10.84%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe the Ark. I believe his age

    1 1.20%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe his age but I believe the Ark.

    2 2.41%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe EITHER his age nor the Ark.

    10 12.05%
  • Not Christian but I believe both the age and the Ark

    2 2.41%
  • Not Christian and its total and utter rubbish!

    49 59.04%
  • Other / I dont Know

    10 12.05%
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Thread: Do You believe Noah?

  1. #151
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    So, essentially... you're a better person than people who are religious... because you don't need religion?

    Arrogant attitude.
    Your inability to come up with a reply is all that I need. It's not that I am better because I don't need religion. I am better because I don't need somebody to tell me what my purpose is. I create my purpose each and every day. That's not arrogant. It's self sufficient. You need religion because otherwise you are unable to find purpose on your own.

    By the way, your reading comprehension is priceless. Continue with the weak strawman arguments.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 12-09-10 at 05:50 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #152
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And I will repeat it as that's what you've described. People who cannot handle reality, especially when they have to invent make-believe nonsense or buy into someone else's make-believe nonsense, are pathetic, stupid losers. If one cannot come up with a rational, intellectual purpose for their lives that doesn't involve bowing down to imaginary friends in the sky, or cannot be a decent human being without such beliefs, why shouldn't we see them that way?

    No, they just chose to believe that nonsense. I happen to hold people rationally accountable for their decisions. It doesn't matter what meaning they find, it matter what mind-poison they accept into their heads. Someone might find meaning in the writing of J.K. Rowling, that doesn't mean they are justified in believing in magic and Hogwarts.

    I'll agree that religion is a control mechanism, I just question whether it's a positive one. It's the ultimate bait and switch, demanding that you act a certain way for a reward that you only supposedly get after you're dead and can't come back and tell anyone if you were scammed. However, the same people who believe in the "good" that supposedly comes from religion also tend to follow the bad. Homophobia, racism, hatred, violence, etc. are all end-results that can come from religion. When you open your mind to things that you have no good, rational reason to believe, you also open your mind to all sorts of mind-poisons and other irrational things to come flooding in. The same people who embrace gods embrace superstitions at a much higher level. Rejecting critical thinking in one area of your life lessens the chance that you will use it overall. When emotional comfort becomes the standard for belief, then anything that brings emotional comfort, no matter how absurd it may be, becomes acceptable.

    That's what I object to.
    Are you saying that without religion mankind would not be able to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc? I find that hard to believe. As hollow as religious belief may be, it has both harmed very many people but helped just as many. The greatest minds of our time were religious. Newton, Einstein, Caesar, King, etc. These people not only rejected the negative trappings of religion and piety, they also made great contributions. If anything religion is preservation of culture. What I find negative about it is the hollowness of religious actions. I don't mind if somebody does a good act in order to go to heaven, what I do mind is that they somehow consider themselves better than those who do good for its own sake.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #153
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you believe in a supreme being who made the whole world and universe, wouldn't Noah living 900 years and the whole ark thing not seem that far fetched?
    Oh, what tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive.

    ricksfolly

  4. #154
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    1) There is no "atheist point of view". Atheism is a single position on a single question: do you believe god(s) exist. You can't get from "I don't believe god exists" to "therefore a man could not live 900 years or ..."

    2) I do NOT claim that it is impossible for:
    A) a man to live 900 years
    B) a man to build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet
    C) a man to gather every land dwelling animal on the planet
    D) a man to feed, house, and keep these animals from eating each other
    E) a man to redistribute all those animals

    What I DO claim is that there is ZERO reason to believe these things did occur. That there is ZERO reason to accept these tales as factual history. Do you understand the difference?
    Yes I understand your post. Basically it is I am a atheist and religious people are stupid for believing their little Harry Potter book.

    Because even if you believe in a god who is capable of making all those things happen, you still have no reason to believe they actually did except for hear-say, opinion, and holy-book tales.
    If you are really a Christian or a Jew(not a Jew in name only) then you believe those Holy book tales as facts.

    Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean he actually did any of those things. Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean that the tale of Noah is anything more than a myth or legend.
    So your saying that even if you believe in a supreme being who created everything that somehow a man who built a boat big enough for a whole **** load of animals and live 900 hundred years is somehow far fetched?


    No. If you are gullible and credulous then you will accept those things without analyzing them critically.
    I do not think you are analyzing things critically. You are looking at this only from a perspective of a atheist and nothing more.

    Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything written in a 2000+ year old book is literal and factual history. God gave you a brain. USE IT!
    You do not believe in God so why bring him up?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  5. #155
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    The arrogance of nonreligious people about religion never stops amazing me.

    Most are not religious so they can feel more "pious" than anyone else.
    Most people are not religious because they can't face reality or need a wheelchair to get through life.
    Christianity is not a control mechanism. It can be used as such by evil people, but the teachings of Christ and the Bible are not a governmental system, they are for spiritual guidance.

    I cannot speak for all Christians or religions, I can however speak for myself. If somehow it was proved tomorrow that God did not exist, my life would not change one bit. To assume otherwise just makes people who believe such nonsense about religious people amazingly judgmental and uninformed.

    The only difference between my reality and a non religious persons reality is mine has God in it. So what???
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  6. #156
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    People who cannot handle reality, especially when they have to invent make-believe nonsense or buy into someone else's make-believe nonsense, are pathetic, stupid losers.
    I agree, but there hundreds of millions out there who have made religion the most important part of their lives, and their belief is as real to them as their arms and legs. Of course you and I and millions of others don't believe in it, but that doesn't mean belief has no positive values.

    AA needs to evoke God to kick the habit, same with drug addicts, including my two daughters, countless others get peace of mind, and still others are mysteriously healed through prayer...

    ricksfolly

  7. #157
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    I agree, but there hundreds of millions out there who have made religion the most important part of their lives, and their belief is as real to them as their arms and legs. Of course you and I and millions of others don't believe in it, but that doesn't mean belief has no positive values.

    AA needs to evoke God to kick the habit, same with drug addicts, including my two daughters, countless others get peace of mind, and still others are mysteriously healed through prayer...
    No, AA *CHOOSES* to evoke God. There are just as many non-religious programs out there that have the same recovery rate as AA without having to resort to imaginary thinking. Further, there isn't any demonstrable instance of someone getting healed through prayer, or at least being healed by whatever they happen to be praying to. Having a positive outlook on life and one's future is often enough to give the body the ability to heal itself. That doesn't prove God exists or that prayer directly made things better, only that someone is deluded into believing something for which there is no good evidence and that belief may have had a positive benefit. You can have the same benefit without the delusional belief.

    There isn't anything demonstrably positive that religious belief can give you that cannot be equally or better achieved through purely secular means.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #158
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Are you saying that without religion mankind would not be able to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc? I find that hard to believe. As hollow as religious belief may be, it has both harmed very many people but helped just as many. The greatest minds of our time were religious. Newton, Einstein, Caesar, King, etc. These people not only rejected the negative trappings of religion and piety, they also made great contributions. If anything religion is preservation of culture. What I find negative about it is the hollowness of religious actions. I don't mind if somebody does a good act in order to go to heaven, what I do mind is that they somehow consider themselves better than those who do good for its own sake.
    No, I am saying however that religion belief, in and of itself, often pushes the deluded into those avenues of hatred when they would have no reason to pursue it otherwise. It's not a matter of someone who is racist to begin with pursuing religion, it's someone who is brought up in a religion being taught that because an ignorant primitive bronze-age tribe believed a thing, therefore we ought to accept it today.

    The fact is, it's irrelevant how many people are "helped" by religion. I would question in many cases if this is real help, or if it's just blind placebo. Many people sit around and wait for God to provide instead of getting up off their backsides and helping themselves. When other people come to their aid, instead of being thankful to human charity, they thank their imaginary friend in the sky. Is that helpful? I think not. Since any "help" that they could have achieved could equally be gotten through entirely secular means, how much of this help was worthwhile, especially considering the serious downsides that often come with religious adherence?

    Isaac Newton lived in a time when openly denouncing religion entirely could get you into serious trouble. His beliefs at the time were heretical to orthodoxy Christianty, he believed that he was specially gifted to interpret what God really meant, a sure sign of basic mental instability. However, like many people, Newton could compartmentalize his religious beliefs from most of the rest of his life. He could be rational in most things he did while being entirely irrational when it came to his faith. The fact that he, like many, could do so is not evidence that his religious beliefs were worthwhile, but that he could do worthwhile things in spite of the insanity he otherwise held.

    Einstein would be best termed a deist, if that. Like many scientists, he considered the grandeur of the universe to be "god". He wasn't a monotheist, he considered the idea absurd. In a letter to M. Berkowitz in 1950, he wrote "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." Just because one uses the word "god" doesn't make one a theist.

    Caesar? You mean Julius? Again, he lived at a time when religion was rampant because of human ignorance, but let's be honest, he thought, at least publically, that he was the living embodiment of the divine. Assuming that's something he really accepted, is that a theist or someone out of their gourd?

    Martin Luther King probably did have strong religious beliefs, what does that have to do with anything? He acted, rightfully, out of enlightened self interest and a strong sense of justice and equality. Those are good things that rarely have anything to do with religious thought. One could easily justify the actions he took in an entirely secular light. You don't need to believe in a sky daddy to want to be equal and free.

    The fact is, what really matters isn't that someone believes a thing, but whether or not that thing is rationally valid. Is it factually true? Is it critically evaluated? Is it supported by objective evidence? The fact that someone gets something out of it is meaningless. There are people who think the planet is being run by reptilian aliens, I'm sure they get something out of their belief too. That said though, their belief is irrational. For those people who want to believe as many true things as possible and reject as many false things as possible, just getting an emotional fuzzy feeling is insufficient reason to believe a proposition, no matter how good it might make you feel.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #159
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Yes I understand your post. Basically it is I am a atheist and religious people are stupid for believing their little Harry Potter book.
    Not quite. For some that may be true.

    There are theists whose opinions and beliefs I respect but they are NOT fundamentalist/literalist/inerrantists who believe such absurdities as the literal truth of the bible and make claims of absolute knowledge. The ones I respect tend to have higher educations in the areas of philosophy and theology. They tend to believe for the aesthetic, hope, and meaning that it provides. They do NOT claim to KNOW that jesus rose from the dead or that heaven and hell exists, or that their god exists. Sadly, these people are a minority and are often locked away in their ivory towers.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you are really a Christian or a Jew(not a Jew in name only) then you believe those Holy book tales as facts.
    absolutely false. This is a prime indication of how skin-deep your knowledge on religion and belief is.

    Have I peaked your curiosity? Are you curious to find out how someone can have faith and be deeply religious/spiritual, be a christian or Jew yet NOT believe the Holy book tales are undeniable historical facts?


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    So your saying that even if you believe in a supreme being who created everything that somehow a man who built a boat big enough for a whole **** load of animals and live 900 hundred years is somehow far fetched?
    almost.

    I'm saying that even if god exists, it doesn't mean the events as described in the OT about Noah are factual history. Nor do they need to be to maintain a rational, consistent, and coherent belief in your god.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I do not think you are analyzing things critically. You are looking at this only from a perspective of a atheist and nothing more.
    Atheism has nothing to do with it. atheists can have extremely silly belief. E.G., scientologists, raelienists, etc.

    I am analyzing claims without PRESUMING they are true. I am questioning how one KNOWS such things are true. What I am describing is an approach known as critical thinking and skepticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You do not believe in God so why bring him up?
    Because I know and understand many different religious perspectives despite being a non-believer. Some of these perspectives are far more reasonable than the dogmatic/literalist/fundamentalist/inerrantist perspective you espouse.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  10. #160
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The arrogance of nonreligious people about religion never stops amazing me.

    Most are not religious so they can feel more "pious" than anyone else.
    To be religious is to be pious. And nobody can has claimed otherwise. Nor as anyone claimed what you're stating above.

    Most people are not religious because they can't face reality or need a wheelchair to get through life.
    Of course they do. That's the entire point of religion. To make you believe there is some ultimate goal to your actions.

    Christianity is not a control mechanism. It can be used as such by evil people, but the teachings of Christ and the Bible are not a governmental system, they are for spiritual guidance.
    The 10 commandments say differently.

    I cannot speak for all Christians or religions, I can however speak for myself. If somehow it was proved tomorrow that God did not exist, my life would not change one bit. To assume otherwise just makes people who believe such nonsense about religious people amazingly judgmental and uninformed.
    I doubt this is true. Mostly because you are asking for negative proof.

    The only difference between my reality and a non religious persons reality is mine has God in it. So what???
    God does not exist anymore than my daughter's imaginary friend does. When she grows up, that imaginary friend will disappear. You are fully grown up and still need that friend. The difference is not between you and the non-religious. The difference is between you and adults.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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