View Poll Results: Do you believe Noah?

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  • Im Christian. I believe his age and the Ark

    9 10.84%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe the Ark. I believe his age

    1 1.20%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe his age but I believe the Ark.

    2 2.41%
  • Im Christian. I dont believe EITHER his age nor the Ark.

    10 12.05%
  • Not Christian but I believe both the age and the Ark

    2 2.41%
  • Not Christian and its total and utter rubbish!

    49 59.04%
  • Other / I dont Know

    10 12.05%
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Thread: Do You believe Noah?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Upping the size increases your problems. You have a fixed size to work with because of the width of a tree and the more of that is taken up by a fastener, ultimately the weaker that section will be when the ship starts to torque.

    Ships are not rigid at sea, otherwise they'd snap in half.
    I'll disagree to a point. Yes there's an upper and lower limit to the size of the nail. However, wood not only bends and already is flexible, but these ships even way back then would have been very wet. Such amounts of water would make the fastners swell making the connection tighter. Wood by it's nature of fibers flexes. There's some discussion over what kind of wood was used though the bible says "gopher" wood. This might make it cedar, cyprus or a type of pine. The size of the ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Lemme tell ya, those are some large dowels.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #132
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Wooden nails are not strong enough to support a ship of that size.
    I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

    Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

    You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #133
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Along with this, I've heard plenty of creationists argue that the grand canyon, rather than being created over millions of years of slowly flowing water, could have been created during one massive global flood. Imagine a flood, with enough raging waters to dig hundred of feet down into clay and soil and earth, then imagine the largest wooden boat ever built by a guy who had no prior experience and no modern tools and conveniences floating on top of that same flood and the boat comes out perfectly fine with all animals still on board etc. It's a laughable proposition unless you conclude that they had divine intervention the entire time during the construction and during the flood. The story is so similar to all the other myths of the time, just like many of Jesus's traits are (virgin birth, the miracles etc) that I can't understand how anybody could possible try to rationalize any of it.
    They can claim whatever they want, it's what they can prove that matters and what we can prove, by every shred of evidence, is that the Grand Canyon was made over a span of millions of years, not a single year. Just being able to make up some wingnut nonsense that supports their absurd beliefs isn't impressive. It just goes to show how delusional fundamentalists really are.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #134
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

    Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

    You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.
    I think the bible is correct in the sense that they were explaining things that were beyond their comprehension and using imagery and metaphors to paint the stories which on some levels are based on a carnal reality.

    Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth... so, does that mean that the flood happened when all humans still hadn't left their original society, OR that means that the flood was a true carnal flood that lasted several weeks and flooded much of the land.

    A good question might be 'where did that water come from??' Is there an answer within our solar system, or did it just happen that the earth passed through some 'cosmic cloud' of mostly water that effectively flooded the earth??

    So, SOMETHING happened involving a large scale flood, but the reality is encoded in those ancient texts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They can claim whatever they want, it's what they can prove that matters and what we can prove, by every shred of evidence, is that the Grand Canyon was made over a span of millions of years, not a single year. Just being able to make up some wingnut nonsense that supports their absurd beliefs isn't impressive. It just goes to show how delusional fundamentalists really are.
    Ya, you can't take the bible that literally or you honestly believe the earth to be about 6000 years old and the earth was made within 6 days and human life is the result of incest. How come these people can't consider that the '6 days' might be symbolic, they might be representative of the process of creation... was this 'god' that came 'down from heavan' ?? Or are they referring to a spiritual god, or more of a psychological reality that is defined as god??? We can't truly know, and even worse, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was different for different texts.

  5. #135
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I think the bible is correct in the sense that they were explaining things that were beyond their comprehension and using imagery and metaphors to paint the stories which on some levels are based on a carnal reality.
    I have no objection to people who believe the Bible is metaphorical or mythology. There is plenty of evidence that shows such a thing occurred in many different cultures. Its the literalists and the picking-and-choosing types that I find fault with.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth...
    Yes. Floods happen. No one denies that.

    What is denied is that
    1) a man built a wooden boat bigger than is possible by engineers today.
    2) all the animals of the world lived on it
    3) the entire world was flooded to the tops of mountains
    4) the world and its animals was repopulated by the survivors
    5) Noah lived to be 900
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  6. #136
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

    Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

    You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.
    If you look at it from a atheist point of view then sure there is no way a man could live 900 hundred years, build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet,gather every land dwelling animal on the planet as well as feed,house and keep these animals from eating each other and then redistribute all those animals once the flood is over. If you believe in a supreme being who created the whole entire universe and well as divine intervention miracles and all that other stuff ,then why would anyone claiming to be a christian really doubt those things? How did Noah build a boat big enough to house every animal? How did Noah Gather all the animals to go on the ark?How did all the animals not kill or eat other other or starve to death? How did all the animals go back to where they went?How did all the plants not drown? If you are a Christian then the answer is God did it,helped or had something to do with it.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  7. #137
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'll disagree to a point. Yes there's an upper and lower limit to the size of the nail. However, wood not only bends and already is flexible, but these ships even way back then would have been very wet. Such amounts of water would make the fastners swell making the connection tighter. Wood by it's nature of fibers flexes. There's some discussion over what kind of wood was used though the bible says "gopher" wood. This might make it cedar, cyprus or a type of pine. The size of the ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Lemme tell ya, those are some large dowels.
    The problem is even with modern shipbuilding techniques, modern tools, modern understanding of physics and ship-building, modern materials, and steel, we have not been able to reproduce a wooden ship half the size of the ark that did anything but leak. If modern methods couldn't do it, then its an extremely safe bet that ancient methods couldn't either.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

    Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

    You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.
    **Shrug** It's an interest intellectual exercise I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth... so, does that mean that the flood happened when all humans still hadn't left their original society, OR that means that the flood was a true carnal flood that lasted several weeks and flooded much of the land.
    Simply because all mythologies have a flood myth does not mean there was a flood. We need to consider that the ancient view of things was extremely narrow; they had no way of knowing what was really going on around them and a massive local flood could have seemed like the entire world had flooded.

    I mean take a look at any flood in the US. Even with modern understanding, if I was there and seeing the main street through town under 20-30 feet of water I'd probably feel like the entire world had flooded.

    The problem with a GLOBAL flood is there is simply no evidence to show that it happened and there is PHYSICALLY not enough water on Earth to achieve one.

    A good question might be 'where did that water come from??' Is there an answer within our solar system, or did it just happen that the earth passed through some 'cosmic cloud' of mostly water that effectively flooded the earth??
    The laws of physics state otherwise, a global flood would not result from any amount of water in space striking the Earth. Such an event would wipe out ALL life on Earth, Noah and the ark included. Additionally, if this did indeed happen, you would disrupt something called the triple point of water on Earth which, again, would wipe out ALL life on Earth.

    Furthermore, if we suspended enough laws of physics for this to be possible, the land would still all be flooded. The water wouldn't go anywhere and would still be here.
    Last edited by Hoplite; 12-09-10 at 04:31 AM.
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  8. #138
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, you can't take the bible that literally or you honestly believe the earth to be about 6000 years old and the earth was made within 6 days and human life is the result of incest. How come these people can't consider that the '6 days' might be symbolic, they might be representative of the process of creation... was this 'god' that came 'down from heavan' ?? Or are they referring to a spiritual god, or more of a psychological reality that is defined as god??? We can't truly know, and even worse, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was different for different texts.
    At that point, why not accept that "God" is symbolic for natural forces that acted over billions of years? Just pretending that there's this father figure in the sky that's inordinately interested in your sex life is absurd.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #139
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you look at it from a atheist point of view then sure there is no way a man could live 900 hundred years, build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet,gather every land dwelling animal on the planet as well as feed,house and keep these animals from eating each other and then redistribute all those animals once the flood is over.
    1) There is no "atheist point of view". Atheism is a single position on a single question: do you believe god(s) exist. You can't get from "I don't believe god exists" to "therefore a man could not live 900 years or ..."

    2) I do NOT claim that it is impossible for:
    A) a man to live 900 years
    B) a man to build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet
    C) a man to gather every land dwelling animal on the planet
    D) a man to feed, house, and keep these animals from eating each other
    E) a man to redistribute all those animals

    What I DO claim is that there is ZERO reason to believe these things did occur. That there is ZERO reason to accept these tales as factual history. Do you understand the difference?

    Its called skepticism/critical_thinking as opposed to gullibility/credulity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you believe in a supreme being who created the whole entire universe and well as divine intervention miracles and all that other stuff ,then why would anyone claiming to be a christian really doubt those things?
    Because even if you believe in a god who is capable of making all those things happen, you still have no reason to believe they actually did except for hear-say, opinion, and holy-book tales.

    Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean he actually did any of those things. Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean that the tale of Noah is anything more than a myth or legend.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    How did Noah build a boat big enough to house every animal? How did Noah Gather all the animals to go on the ark?How did all the animals not kill or eat other other or starve to death? How did all the animals go back to where they went?How did all the plants not drown? If you are a Christian then the answer is God did it,helped or had something to do with it.
    No. If you are gullible and credulous then you will accept those things without analyzing them critically.

    Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything written in a 2000+ year old book is literal and factual history. God gave you a brain. USE IT!
    Last edited by scourge99; 12-09-10 at 01:40 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  10. #140
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    Re: Do You believe Noah?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    1) There is no "atheist point of view". Atheism is a single position on a single question: do you believe god(s) exist. You can't get from "I don't believe god exists" to "therefore a man could not live 900 years or ..."

    2) I do NOT claim that it is impossible for:
    A) a man to live 900 years
    B) a man to build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet
    C) a man to gather every land dwelling animal on the planet
    D) a man to feed, house, and keep these animals from eating each other
    E) a man to redistribute all those animals

    What I DO claim is that there is ZERO reason to believe these things did occur. That there is ZERO reason to accept these tales as factual history. Do you understand the difference?

    Its called skepticism/critical_thinking as opposed to gullibility/credulity.

    Because even if you believe in a god who is capable of making all those things happen, you still have no reason to believe they actually did except for hear-say, opinion, and holy-book tales.

    Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean he actually did any of those things. Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean that the tale of Noah is anything more than a myth or legend.


    No. If you are gullible and credulous then you will accept those things without analyzing them critically.

    Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything written in a 2000+ year old book is literal and factual history. God gave you a brain. USE IT!
    People need to believe these things. Otherwise their lives have no meaning. They can't find meaning in their existence by taking care of their kids. They can't find meaning in their existence by being good to their neighbors. They must be told that if they do these things, they will be rewarded. It is the reward of being a good person that they seek. They're not good for the sake of their own happiness, they are good for what they stand to gain at the end of their lives.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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